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  1. #21
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolox View Post
    ^ But aren't they supposed to kill Exorcist to win the battle ? So what Earl looses by loosing a pawn if he can always replace it with 10 more..
    Wouldn't it be wiser to let the akuma grow into level 3s and apparently 4s first? Those pathetic little guys can't stand up to even a single Exorcist. Losing tons of weak akuma that could evolve is just plain stupid and a waste - you don't lose pawns in chess for no reason, and it's a lot harder for them to evolve than it is for akuma to do so. Even a level 3 can't usually win against Exorcists - Eshi lost to Lenalee and it had what is possibly the biggest advantage any akuma could possibly have.
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  2. #22
    Kolox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    I don't see why to bother so much - if Exorcists are going to fight some worthless one levels, that it's all the same - they just lose time. While the akuma's will evolve later or sooner - to evolve, they need to be proactive. And killing an Exorcist is probably one of the way to evolve quickly.

    Also remember how many finders died while fighting level one akuma. It doesn't go to waste, it never did.

    Earl has as many Akuma's as there are humans in the world - it isn't that hard to find new material. It isn't any smarter to keep them grow because it means that Earl would need to actually take care of them - and that would be a time waste.

    Also it doesn't mean that all of the akuma's would make a good level 4 or level 5 (?). That way, weak will die, strong will prevail - a best way of selections, it's like Exorcist were actually helping out Earl by taking out the weak and leaving only the strong ones.

  3. #23
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolox View Post
    I don't see why to bother so much - if Exorcists are going to fight some worthless one levels, that it's all the same - they just lose time. While the akuma's will evolve later or sooner - to evolve, they need to be proactive. And killing an Exorcist is probably one of the way to evolve quickly.

    Also remember how many finders died while fighting level one akuma. It doesn't go to waste, it never did.
    But the akuma can't kill an Exorcist. It'd be easier for them to stay in a town and kill villagers randomly - then hide when the Order comes to investigate. (They wear distinctive clothing; it can't be that hard to recognize them.) Why send them out to fight Exorcists when we have never seen an Exorcist killed by an akuma?

    Earl has as many Akuma's as there are humans in the world
    That's not really possible for obvious reasons, Kolox.

    Also it doesn't mean that all of the akuma's would make a good level 4 or level 5 (?). That way, weak will die, strong will prevail - a best way of selections, it's like Exorcist were actually helping out Earl by taking out the weak and leaving only the strong ones.
    The weak do die - akuma eat other akuma, remember? If every akuma gets sent out to fight Exorcists at level 1 or 2, they'll all die, and the potentially strong ones will never get the chance to grow up.
    ~Digital_Eon~




  4. #24
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digi
    Maybe. It could be that while they do want the suffering to end, they're afraid to do so... that, or the more corrupt ones don't realize they're suffering (some are probably just sadistic bastards like Tiki). It could be a bit like an addiction, too. They suffer with each kill, but killing is the only way to make them feel a *little* better (even if they only attack Order members).
    If they do not even realise that they are suffering then whats the point of this whole system? How will they be cleansed if they do not even realise thier sins? What the point in increasing the level of suffering if the process itself feels good?

  5. #25
    Kolox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    BTW : The fact that we haven't ever seen Exorcist being killed by Akuma doesn't mean there weren't. It's not like they weren't any other exorcist than the ones Allen met.

    You seem to not understand - Earl really doesn't care because he can't lose. Akuma are something that slows down Exorcist and have a chance of killing them, so why not let them if you have infinite number of it ? Exorcist will end up tired and the akuma's will evolve.

    I believe the only surviving exorcist we have here are those who can easily defeat an Akuma, the rest just died from Akuma attacks - remember how much trouble Allen used to have with level 2 akuma, so did Kanda, Lavi and Leenalee.

    About the cleansing system, I would like to ask you something Reinard - what's the whole point of making new personality ? Look at Eliadne - she was something new when she evolved, she probably was a man before but then she gained new life, new personality, new everything. So how does that fit the whole cleansing thing ?

  6. #26
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reinard-fox View Post
    If they do not even realise that they are suffering then whats the point of this whole system? How will they be cleansed if they do not even realise thier sins? What the point in increasing the level of suffering if the process itself feels good?
    It doesn't really feel good. It's like the people who eat when they feel sad, then get fat, then eat because they feel sad about being fat... like that. It leads to more suffering in the end.

    Kolox: Yes, they undoubtedly were. I just think it's a good point that none of them have been killed, although Lenalee nearly was (and Kanda, I guess, but that was their first time seeing a level 2 and Kanda was tricked by its ability... so that wasn't power but Kanda's stupidity). Level 2s haven't posed a threat since volume 2. By the way, those other Exorcists you're talking about - most of them were killed by Tiki, and three others were killed by something else (presumably a Noah).

    As many akuma as the Earl has, it's just plain stupid to waste them like that. Obviously, the Exorcists aren't tired enough to keep killing them.

    And finally, the cleansing thing - the akuma do retain their original personalities and memories; many of them just take on a personality more suited to their new body. If Reinard's theory is correct, that's like adding that person to the akuma, so the akuma really is a combination of two people.
    ~Digital_Eon~




  7. #27
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolox
    You seem to not understand - Earl really doesn't care because he can't lose. Akuma are something that slows down Exorcist and have a chance of killing them, so why not let them if you have infinite number of it ? Exorcist will end up tired and the akuma's will evolve.
    The only time Akuma themselves seeked the fight with Exorcists was that episode when Allen eye was injured. Back then Earl sent Akuma to deal with Allen for the same reason he sent Tyky later - he was trying to kill everyone who had been connected to 14th.

    The other situation when fights occure because Akuma attack Exorcists, is when Earl orders them to retrive Innocence - like in Suman's case or in 3rd arc.

    Of course Earl can afford one or two thousands of them; but it is hardly wise to waste them meaninglessly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kolox
    BTW : The fact that we haven't ever seen Exorcist being killed by Akuma doesn't mean there weren't. It's not like they weren't any other exorcist than the ones Allen met.
    Those were some crappy Exorcists then. All of those we have seen killed 1lvl with ease.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolox
    About the cleansing system, I would like to ask you something Reinard - what's the whole point of making new personality ? Look at Eliadne - she was something new when she evolved, she probably was a man before but then she gained new life, new personality, new everything. So how does that fit the whole cleansing thing ?
    That new personality - Earl program - does not erase the old one - the Soul. They exist in Akuma together.
    New personality is programmed to torture the soul - in Eliades case it killed every man who got close to her, despite soul seeking being together with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digi
    It doesn't really feel good. It's like the people who eat when they feel sad, then get fat, then eat because they feel sad about being fat... like that. It leads to more suffering in the end.
    I do not think that it is the Soul who kills - it is rather a programm. Of course, it can be otherwise, its' a pure speculation from my side after all.

  8. #28
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reinard-fox View Post
    The other situation when fights occure because Akuma attack Exorcists, is when Earl orders them to retrive Innocence - like in Suman's case or in 3rd arc.
    Even in the cases where akuma are sent to retrieve Innocence or some other mission, the Exorcists attack the akuma anyway. It's hardly as if the Exorcists would prefer to mind their own business and the akuma just won't let them - it kind of seems like the opposite, actually. Many of the ones lurking in villages and towns seem perfectly content to sit around and do nothing until they are ordered to.

    Those were some crappy Exorcists then. All of those we have seen killed 1lvl with ease.
    I guess they could always have been caught by surprise, but they would have had to be extremely inexperienced and probably not that bright. Even level 2s barely stand a chance against most Exorcists.
    ~Digital_Eon~




  9. #29
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    Heh heh, double post. ._.;;

    I can't remember what chapter of DGM this is in (if I get responses, I'll try and look harder), but I remember reading something about the Earl wanting to bring about the "three days of darkness". Reinard mentioned the Apocalypse in his first post here, and that's the event where these three days are supposed to occur. Of course, that just adds support to the Noah-are-working-for-God theory since God apparently wants this to happen in order to bring about the thousand years of happiness or whatever.

    In additional support for Reinard's theory, remember that Jesus is supposed to return and judge everyone - and there's a parallel of Jesus in DGM. Who's judging the akuma souls (since he's the only one that can see them anyway)? - yup, Allen. It could even be that Dark Matter and Innocence aren't supposed to oppose each other since they're both needed for this kind of purification (dark matter to make the akuma, and Innocence to destroy them).

    Finally, Kolox has been mentioning that the Order doesn't seem very religious. Some Christians believe that mentions of the Apocalypse, particularly in Revelations, was symbolic and referred to the persecution of Christians under the Romans, not to a literal apocalypse thousands of years later. The Order may very well not be fanatical fundamentalists, which would explain both their apparent lack of religion and why they oppose the Noah. After all, isn't the debate over literal vs. symbolic interpretations of the Bible a great issue today? =P
    ~Digital_Eon~




  10. #30
    ranteil is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    Back to something Kolox mentioned about the Earl having an infinate number of lvl 1 Akuma. The problem is where do you store that many weapons. In order to store them, you would have to hide them, and the Earl wouldn't be insane enough to label them, so they are probably ordered to "act as close to normal as possible" to their "body's" old life. This would also explain why only a few actually kill people at random too. Also if the Exorsists come up on one (probably by accident in the first place), well no big loss since there could be multiple ones in the same area. I think the lvl 1's are more or less to keep the exorsists attention then anything else. Lvl 2 Akuma are probably ment to weed out low to mid level exorsists, and lvl 3 were ment to get the mid to high level ones. The 4th lvl (and up) are probably just mistakes, but the Earl isn't complaining. I see the Noah and the Earl as thoes who will take on the General and such. With out knowing how old the order is we can't dissregaurd the fact that earlier Exorsists may have died at the hands of Akuma (more then likely when the Order started and they didn't know as much as now).

    Now if I remember right, the soul is the power source of the Akuma (the more it suffers the more power the Akuma gets). With this in mind it may seem like a Purgitory type of thing (suffer x years for your sins as an Akuma, and be released) in which case the Earl possibly works for God. Yet what about the sins of the one that summoned the Akuma? Since it isn't their soul, and Allen can see the soul (note he always only sees one soul) suffering, the second soul is probably condemed. I don't think that this would be following the Christain beleifs at all (why give up half of the children, when you state that the end will come when all worship?). Also if we are going into metaphore here, the "apocolypse" the Earl is aiming for might just be that of the Akuma instead of the world.

 

 
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