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  1. #1
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Default Acceptable Methods

    Firstly I thought of discussing this question in Inspector thread, but then I figured that it involeves more then just Rouvelier, so a new thread would be a better solution.

    The question is: which methods do you find acceptable to be used under conditions present in DGM?

    I personaly find it hard to answer this question. Considering Order is fighting for the sake of humanity, it is only natural to expect them to not hurt people, to protect them as hard as they can. But is it even possible? For examle, lets take the second arc, where the innocence hidden inside the doll was involved. During that time, a lot of finders died just because exorcists were not able to arrive at time. Back then finders tryed to hold down two 1 level akuma and one 2nd level, not even thinking about backing off and giving innocence to Earl. This leads us to two conclusions - first is that finders are willing to give up thier lives if it means winning the war, ans second - that a gap between fighting abilities of a finder and exorcist is enormously huge. Which means that each and every exorcist is precious adn Order simply has no right to miss its' chance when they find a compatible person - they absolutely have to make use of this person, because it means saving lifes of others.

    In this war Order has an overwhelming disadvantage because it's fighting squad is two small. Exorcists are hard to find, finders are two weak - what can Order do to win the war, to protect human? Yes, they have to increase numbers of exorcists by any means, as this means that less finders and citizens will have to die. How do they do it? The answer comes from manga, as Order has already tried the most obvious method to increase the number of it's forces. Is it possible for someone who is not a chosen one to use Innocence? It appearse that answer was negative. We still do not know the fate of the people were forced to synchronize, but I see no reason to assume that they all died.

    If making normal people into exorcists is impossible, then only one path remains - all of those capable of synchronization should be used. If such a person agrees for the sake of money - the pay - as it happened in Suman's case. But. What if a chosen one does not want to spend his life fighting? What if he/she doesn't want to risk his life for the sake of otehrs? What if he/she is just a little kid? Does this mean that such a person should not be forced to join Order? AND: does an Order have right to NOT force him/her? This is, obviously, Linalee's case.

    Beside this two examples the more may be found that show exteremely harsh and sometimes grim politics of Order. BUT do we have right to call this people evil? And do they have right to use this methods?
    Last edited by reinard-fox; 01-25-2008 at 02:12 AM.

  2. #2
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    One of the problems with the Order is that we don't know their motives for fighting the Earl. While it could be to save humanity, the experiments would imply that the actual goal is otherwise - while it does seem like a small sacrifice for the greater good, it doesn't make sense for that to happen at all if the Order is so focused on the lives of humans.

    However, one of the undeniably bad parts of the Order is its treatment of children. All of the Exorcists we've seen join the Order in the manga (Allen, Miranda, Krory, Chaoji) were old enough to make that decision (well, maybe not Allen, but he's hardly a small child), but it's clear that the Order has taken children - Kanda and Lenalee - and sent them into battles when they were still young. Lenalee also said that the Fallen experiment involved a boy (and he didn't look that old, either). At this time in history, however, children weren't allowed to fight in wars in developed nations (ie: WWI, which should take place about fifteen years later). While it's not unreasonable to expect Finders to give up their lives and Exorcists to join the war and put their own lives in danger, it is unacceptable that children should be mistreated. I'm sure they could have taken Lenalee to the Order and raised her normally until she was old enough (~14, 15?) to join the battles of her own will.
    ~Digital_Eon~




  3. #3
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon View Post
    One of the problems with the Order is that we don't know their motives for fighting the Earl. While it could be to save humanity, the experiments would imply that the actual goal is otherwise - while it does seem like a small sacrifice for the greater good, it doesn't make sense for that to happen at all if the Order is so focused on the lives of humans.
    Even if I don't like Kanda's words about how war can't be won without deaths I can not deny it. From Order's point of view to sacrifice 4 finders in Order to gain innocence make perfect sense, as it allows to get a great weapon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon View Post
    However, one of the undeniably bad parts of the Order is its treatment of children. All of the Exorcists we've seen join the Order in the manga (Allen, Miranda, Krory, Chaoji) were old enough to make that decision (well, maybe not Allen, but he's hardly a small child), but it's clear that the Order has taken children - Kanda and Lenalee - and sent them into battles when they were still young. Lenalee also said that the Fallen experiment involved a boy (and he didn't look that old, either). At this time in history, however, children weren't allowed to fight in wars in developed nations (ie: WWI, which should take place about fifteen years later). While it's not unreasonable to expect Finders to give up their lives and Exorcists to join the war and put their own lives in danger, it is unacceptable that children should be mistreated. I'm sure they could have taken Lenalee to the Order and raised her normally until she was old enough (~14, 15?) to join the battles of her own will.
    I do not think that life of a finder is worth less then life of a child.

    The reason to use a kid in that synchronization experiment was that chindren adapt to new conditions way better then older people, so he had a higher chance of staying alife. And why that experiment took place - that i already explained.

    Order has little choice when it comes to using teenagers in war or not. Parellel with WWI makes little sense, because conditions are totally different - in real war children were not used because they were way worser warriors then adults and thus there was no reason to use them in the first place. And here kids are better fighters, and even more - are sometimes the only ones who can really fight. If Order were not using kids they would have had only 3/4 of thier current army. How many lifes has this kids saved? Meaning, who many would have died if they were not on the battlefield? Like fuck a lot. By using kids Order saves civilians. This we shall not forget.

  4. #4
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    It isn't a matter about a Finder's life being worth less than a child's; it's a matter of consent. Children (which technically includes Allen at this time, although since he has no parents...) can't legally consent to certain things, hence why conscription in wars is for those eighteen and older. The Finders can choose to place their lives in danger; children can't. The Order could have kept Lenalee and Kanda in the Order and refrained from mistreatment until they were old enough to fight, or if there was an emergency as in this situation. That would have kept them safe.

    On that note, we don't know if using kids ever helped save people. What seems to be the case is that Exorcists arrive way too late to save people - see Kanda's story in the Reverse novel and the first chapter of DGM for evidence. A child would be even slower in getting there (they just can't run as fast/jump on trains/etc.), and they're generally weaker than adults are. From the stance of saving people, it does seem possible that they would have done something, but is that morally justifiable, particularly considering that this is a Catholic Order (and Jesus particularly wanted no harm to come to children)?
    ~Digital_Eon~




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    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digi
    It isn't a matter about a Finder's life being worth less than a child's; it's a matter of consent. Children (which technically includes Allen at this time, although since he has no parents...) can't legally consent to certain things, hence why conscription in wars is for those eighteen and older. The Finders can choose to place their lives in danger; children can't. The Order could have kept Lenalee and Kanda in the Order and refrained from mistreatment until they were old enough to fight, or if there was an emergency as in this situation. That would have kept them safe.
    Of course, it is not the best choice to make kids fight. I do not deny that. But it is even worser to decrease the number of your forces, as this leads to less Akuma being killed, meaning more alife akuma can kill more innocent humans.

    If they would be kept in the HQ all the time and then suddenly thrown into hot battlefield against someone strong they would have died within 10 minutes. Without experience gained in battles with weak opponent you can't stand a chance against a strong one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digi
    On that note, we don't know if using kids ever helped save people. What seems to be the case is that Exorcists arrive way too late to save people - see Kanda's story in the Reverse novel and the first chapter of DGM for evidence. A child would be even slower in getting there (they just can't run as fast/jump on trains/etc.), and they're generally weaker than adults are. From the stance of saving people, it does seem possible that they would have done something, but is that morally justifiable, particularly considering that this is a Catholic Order (and Jesus particularly wanted no harm to come to children)?
    At the ship those kids helped to save Anita and friends + whole town. Of course they do not always arive at time.

    Alen and Linalee are still underage. Do not seem very slow to me.

    They do kill akuma - which means that this Akuma will not have any more chance to kill anyone.

    Hey, that God you are talking about have just ordered to annihilate everyone including kids.

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    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    The kids could always have trained in the HQ. Eventually, they're going to be thrown out in battle anyway and fighting the same level of akuma (level 2s didn't seem to be common until the beginning of DGM). Why not wait until they're older and stronger?

    As for Allen and Lenalee, yes, they're underage, but they're teenagers, not children, and would naturally have some level of responsibility... unlike children of even nine or ten years of age.

    Anyway, I guess it depends on your point of view. If the Order would do anything to win the war, then yes, they're doing exactly what they should be. However, that doesn't mean that what they're doing is morally acceptable (particularly because none of those Order members are risking their own lives, or that of their relatives - Komui may be an exception) or that the results of this unacceptable behaviour are justifiable with the end result of what they should be fighting for. The Order seems to have no boundaries, and that isn't a good thing - it's already alienated some of its, uh, employees, and would everyone still work for the Order if they knew what was going on?
    ~Digital_Eon~




  7. #7
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Of course it is better to wait till they are older and stronger. I just do not think that war can wait.

    I have yet to see an evidence of 10 year old kid fighting.

    Sometimes situation force people to make decisions that they would not normally make - if you are about to be killed what would you chose - to kill or to die? Of course, this situation is extreme, but humanity if DGM is in extreme situation as well. Even Komui, who hardly can be called cold-hearted, participated in experiments on children. I would not be surprised if some of them have already lost thier souls in this war, and now they do not feel anything when sending people to missions with no chance of success or sentencing people to death without even proving anything or when they see thier students deaths.

  8. #8
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reinard-fox View Post
    Sometimes situation force people to make decisions that they would not normally make - if you are about to be killed what would you chose - to kill or to die? Of course, this situation is extreme, but humanity if DGM is in extreme situation as well. Even Komui, who hardly can be called cold-hearted, participated in experiments on children. I would not be surprised if some of them have already lost thier souls in this war, and now they do not feel anything when sending people to missions with no chance of success or sentencing people to death without even proving anything or when they see thier students deaths.
    Komui isn't a good example of a stable person, either. We've seen his obsession with Lenalee, and it seems perfectly likely that he'd do anything - even risk the lives of many others - to protect her. I agree that many of them have become traumatized by the war and what they've seen and had to do, but the reason for that can probably be found in the origins of the war. Does the Order have a legitimate reason for what they've done? Are they really trying to save humans?

    My own personal views aside, many people would argue that the Order's actions are completely wrong. Torturing and killing hundreds - probably thousands - of people for the sake of winning a war is still morally wrong (that is, if one believes that all life is precious). Logically, there should be a way for the Order to fight with as little internal risk to their workers as possible and it doesn't seem as if the Order has considered that path.
    ~Digital_Eon~




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    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    I do not see any other reason for thier actions aside from them trying to save humans. And if saving humanity is not a legitimate reason for this, then there are none.

    Where did this hundreds and thousands come from? we only know about several exorcists and several people who were experimented on. Why would they torture and kill 1000 people?

    We do not know if they considered that path or not. We have to little info on Orders history to conclude that.

  10. #10
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reinard-fox View Post
    Where did this hundreds and thousands come from? we only know about several exorcists and several people who were experimented on. Why would they torture and kill 1000 people?
    Sorry, I was also referring to Finders and Exorcists who died in the battles (the "killing" part, not torturing). I don't see why hundreds wouldn't have been tortured, though, over the hundred years that the Order was been active.

    We do not know if they considered that path or not. We have to little info on Orders history to conclude that.
    They don't seem to show any remorse for what happens - even Komui - which makes me wonder if they did consider it. If they had, there should be more thoughts of "this is the only way".
    ~Digital_Eon~




 

 
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