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  1. #11
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon View Post
    Sorry, I was also referring to Finders and Exorcists who died in the battles (the "killing" part, not torturing). I don't see why hundreds wouldn't have been tortured, though, over the hundred years that the Order was been active.
    No reason to torture several hundreds people because it is obvious from just 4-5 experiments that implanting innocence in someone other then a "chosen" is impossible.

    As for soldiers dying in battles - it happens in normal wars as well. I see no reason to assume that al this casualities are the result of inability of Orders higher ups to command properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon View Post
    They don't seem to show any remorse for what happens - even Komui - which makes me wonder if they did consider it. If they had, there should be more thoughts of "this is the only way".
    And how are they supposed to show it? Maybe, by giving cakes to those who they have tortured?

  2. #12
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
    Digital_Eon is offline Super Moderator Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by reinard-fox View Post
    No reason to torture several hundreds people because it is obvious from just 4-5 experiments that implanting innocence in someone other then a "chosen" is impossible.

    As for soldiers dying in battles - it happens in normal wars as well. I see no reason to assume that al this casualities are the result of inability of Orders higher ups to command properly.
    If that many soldiers are dying, there must be problems. It isn't unreasonable to believe that the fixing of these problems is not the top priority of the Order unless it involves a greater danger (like Suman's betrayal, which threatened Exorcists). Even then, has the Order done anything to combat the possibility of internal betrayal before the problem occurs?

    As for the torture, the Order definitely did more experiments than just the few that led to Fallen. I pity the Exorcists who were the first to be found by the Order.

    And how are they supposed to show it? Maybe, by giving cakes to those who they have tortured?
    By thinking it? Hoshino has chosen to show us their thoughts on occasion, Komui in particular. Although yes, cake might be a reasonable option. Cake shows you care. =)
    ~Digital_Eon~




  3. #13
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    If that many soldiers are dying, there must be problems. It isn't unreasonable to believe that the fixing of these problems is not the top priority of the Order unless it involves a greater danger (like Suman's betrayal, which threatened Exorcists). Even then, has the Order done anything to combat the possibility of internal betrayal before the problem occurs?
    Once again, I have yet to see the evidence that many thousands are already dead. We have witnessed only one case of mass murder - when Akuma massacered Anita's ship. How many exorcists were there? Pretty much 1/3 of all Orders forces. How many civilians have died? How is this HQ's fault?

    They have developed several ways for finders to fight, which were shown briefly in the second arc.

    As for the torture, the Order definitely did more experiments than just the few that led to Fallen. I pity the Exorcists who were the first to be found by the Order.
    Evidence? Also, it doesn't seem to me that Hevlaska needs to be pitied. Or even want someone to pity her.

  4. #14
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
    Digital_Eon is offline Super Moderator Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by reinard-fox View Post
    Once again, I have yet to see the evidence that many thousands are already dead. We have witnessed only one case of mass murder - when Akuma massacered Anita's ship. How many exorcists were there? Pretty much 1/3 of all Orders forces. How many civilians have died? How is this HQ's fault?
    What about researching better protection for Finders, since barriers obviously don't work against level 2 and higher akuma? Plenty of Finders died in that marionette town. Why not attempt to combat betrayal at its source - dissatisfaction within the Order - or prevent tons of information from being given to just anyone? It just feels like the Order doesn't really care about how to make sure these things don't happen again.

    Evidence? Also, it doesn't seem to me that Hevlaska needs to be pitied. Or even want someone to pity her.
    Hevlaska is unique; if they performed risky experiments on her, the Order would be in trouble. I was referring to combat-oriented minions like the ones currently in the plot. If the Order was experimenting on humans a hundred years after, what must they have been doing in the beginning?
    ~Digital_Eon~




  5. #15
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon View Post
    What about researching better protection for Finders, since barriers obviously don't work against level 2 and higher akuma? Plenty of Finders died in that marionette town. Why not attempt to combat betrayal at its source - dissatisfaction within the Order - or prevent tons of information from being given to just anyone? It just feels like the Order doesn't really care about how to make sure these things don't happen again.
    In the begining of the manga it seems as 2 level akuma are really very unique and perhaps they really were rare - so Order had little opportunity to study them and thier power to creat adequate defence. Also, it is extremely hard to create a universal way of defence against those each of who have unique abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon View Post
    Hevlaska is unique; if they performed risky experiments on her, the Order would be in trouble. I was referring to combat-oriented minions like the ones currently in the plot. If the Order was experimenting on humans a hundred years after, what must they have been doing in the beginning?
    Assuming they had reasons to do that. How long has it been since Earl has began to actively "work"? It is obvious that he began to spread his influence on other lands the Japan not so long ago - at least not more then a century. If his attack began before Order was organised and at least several compatible people were found Earl would have already taken over the whole world. It appeares that his powers had been gradualy rising and I'm pretty sure that only 10-20 years ago they have increased to a really serious level, because it was time when Noah were actively born. So I think that this period was when Order has began to fall into real dissadvantage that was a reason for them to start searching for alternative methods of creating exorcists.

    Also, what else beside this experiment of exorcist creation could they have tried?
    Last edited by reinard-fox; 01-25-2008 at 01:26 PM.

  6. #16
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reinard-fox View Post
    In the begining of the manga it seems as 2 level akuma are really very unique and perhaps they really were rare - so Order had little opportunity to study them and thier power to creat adequate defence. Also, it is extremely hard to create a universal way of defence against those each of who have unique abilities.
    It's been three months since then. I can't believe they haven't developed anything better in that time.

    Assuming they had reasons to do that. How long has it been since Earl has began to actively "work"? It is obvious that he began to spread his influence on other lands the Japan not so long ago - at least not more then a century. If his attack began before Order was organised and at least several compatible people were found Earl would have already taken over the whole world. It appeares that his powers had been gradualy rising and I'm pretty sure that only 10-20 years ago they have increased to a really serious level, because it was time when Noah were actively born. So I think that this period was when Order has began to fall into real dissadvantage that was a reason for them to start searching for alternative methods of creating exorcists.

    Also, what else beside this experiment of exorcist creation could they have tried?
    It isn't a matter of creating Exorcists but of studying them. It wouldn't be unusual for them to perform experiments on existing Exorcists to see things like how far they can go, for example. In fact, I think it's more likely that there were more experiments at that time: if the Earl wasn't very powerful, the Order wouldn't need as many Exorcists as it possibly could have (as it does now). They could afford to lose a few to experiments for the sake of the future.

    Anyway, the basic logic of whether their tactics are acceptable or not is: while it's understandable why the Order did/is doing what it did/does, it would not be acceptable by today's human rights standards by any means.
    ~Digital_Eon~




  7. #17
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    It's been three months since then. I can't believe they haven't developed anything better in that time.
    For science is is hardly a big period. To develop new technology much more is needed. And we do not even know if it possible or not.

    It isn't a matter of creating Exorcists but of studying them. It wouldn't be unusual for them to perform experiments on existing Exorcists to see things like how far they can go, for example. In fact, I think it's more likely that there were more experiments at that time: if the Earl wasn't very powerful, the Order wouldn't need as many Exorcists as it possibly could have (as it does now). They could afford to lose a few to experiments for the sake of the future.
    Yeah, they could have sacrifieced exorcists in the past to study them. They might have tryed to force them into higher levels of synchronisation or to make equipment type into parasytic.

    Anyway, the basic logic of whether their tactics are acceptable or not is: while it's understandable why the Order did/is doing what it did/does, it would not be acceptable by today's human rights standards by any means.
    I wonder what it means - that Order is evil or that in extreme situations today's human rights standards are not working? Both, I guess.

  8. #18
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
    Digital_Eon is offline Super Moderator Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by reinard-fox View Post
    I wonder what it means - that Order is evil or that in extreme situations today's human rights standards are not working? Both, I guess.
    Today's human rights standards are correct, although they obviously wouldn't have been in place at the time. It means that the Order has no morals, I guess. It'll do anything to get what it wants.
    ~Digital_Eon~




  9. #19
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    ^ Its not a matter of being correct or not. I question the fact they they will help humanity to survive events like once present in DGM.

  10. #20
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reinard-fox View Post
    ^ Its not a matter of being correct or not. I question the fact they they will help humanity to survive events like once present in DGM.
    If the Order attempted to find ways to avoid more torture and death than absolutely necessary, I'm sure they could find a way. For one, they could stick to finding Accomodators through searching, which seems to be the natural (and safe) way.

    ...The first time I read that, I thought you meant that the Order won't help humanity to survive, and it made me think of the backstory of DGM. If the Exorcists won, why would the world be destroyed? Something about that isn't right.
    ~Digital_Eon~




 

 
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