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  1. #1
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    Default The Influence of Jesus on D.Gray-Man

    Literature is often full of symbolism: words, symbols, or other things that evoke images or allude to outside influences without the authour having to specifically mention the meaning of the symbol. For example, heroes in certain stories often share similar traits, most likely due to influences on their characters from previous tales. The Bible, being a well-known piece of literature (at the very least, it is a book) is often the source of many influences that modern-day writers draw on, particularly with heroes in certain kinds of tales being required to sacrifice something - sometimes their life - to save the world. It's obvious that Hoshino Katsura is drawing on at least one of those tales - Noah's Ark - for D.Gray-Man, but for a story set in an Order under the control of the Vatican, there is, as one of the posters here (=P) has commented, remarkably little mention of Catholic beliefs and figures in the story.

    However, we know Hoshino does her research, and there are a few things that stood out right away about how she might have woven things into the story, so I did a little thinking and realized that there are plenty of allusions to Jesus... within the characters, particularly Allen. The most obvious fact is that his birthday is also on Christmas, but, like Jesus, the actual date and year of his birth are unknown. Allen also has no known parents but was raised instead by Mana Walker, who adopted him (since Mary apparently conceived Jesus without the help of a man - virgin conception and all - Joseph would technically not have been Jesus's biological father, either... of course, that's just the legend, but going on that-). There's a chance that Maria was involved in that, since her name is, of all things, Maria. It's also interesting to note that Mary is famous for the Magnificat, which is a song - Maria the Exorcist is apparently a singer.

    Then there's the incident that happened when Allen was twelve - Mana's death. That famous story of Jesus in the Temple (the "Finding in the Temple") occurred when Jesus was twelve. Important age, huh~ Another interesting person, Joan of Arc, began to have her visions at the age of twelve (possibly like Allen getting his cursed eye and being able to see and hear the souls of akuma).

    The first story involving adult Jesus in the Bible is his baptism, where he is revealed as the Son of God. Allen makes his first appearance many chapters before a similar incident, but he isn't completely taken into the Order until he's checked by Hevlaska (certainly a chilling feeling!). That's also when Hevlaska prophecies Allen's future as a "Time Destroyer".

    On to something really important~ Jesus was said to have twelve apostles, right? On both the sides of the Order and the Noah, there are thirteen of Exorcists and Noah each besides Allen himself. For the Noah, Skin is apparently dead, so there are twelve Noah. There are thirteen Exorcists, so it's possible - and likely - that one of those (Bookman? Sokaro?) will die and leave thirteen Exorcists, including Allen. Interesting numbers, hm? One of the apostles also betrayed Jesus - Judas could be an influence on Chaoji, who doesn't like Allen and would probably not hesitate to betray him to, say, Leverrier.

    As for the betrayal, Allen is already being suspected by his allies: the Order, who want to arrest him for heresy. Joan of Arc (I mentioned her above) was also tried for heresy (and executed, although she chose to wear men's clothes to prevent being assaulted in prison and that's what apparently led to her conviction and death). Jesus died in April; the time in DGM is currently winter (probably around early to mid-December), so a confrontation and conclusion to the battles, or even a trial, could very well be in the spring. Allen has already been "resurrected", too - he died and came back to life, although not in a very dramatic way. =P He did, however, have a certain woman who is very close to him crying over his body~ It's possible that the same will happen after a final battle, since we all want a happy ending.

    Back to the Apostles thing, Lenalee could be a parallel of Peter in the story. Peter ended up being the closest Apostle to Jesus, later becoming the first Pope. Simon Peter, along with his brother, were the first two to become Apostles; Lenalee and Kanda were the first two Exorcists to be introduced after Allen and met him around the same time. Lenalee also has shown an ability to walk on water; this could be a Jesus thing (because of Lenalee and Allen being the Heart, perhaps?), or Wikipedia says that Peter was the only other ever taught to do such a thing. As far as we know, Allen can't, so... well, anyway. (Jesus did perform miracles of raising the dead. This could be related to Allen bringing back his friends in the Ark, who were gone if not dead, or not.)

    Komui seems to play a role similar to Pontius Pilate; he has a role of authority and is involved in the watching - and possible eventual trial - of Allen. Like Pilate, he doesn't believe Allen is guilty, but will likely be forced to do the will of those who have power over him.

    Finally, the less specific references and allusions. Allen's "Crowned Clown" invocation is actually written in kanji as "God's Clown". The second part is the same, but on one hand, you have the reference to God, while on the other, the mention of a crown (Jesus claimed to be the King of the Jews. Allen doesn't seem to be any king, but he's got a crown). Additionally, clowns were associated with outcasts of society, such as prostitutes and lepers; these were people who Jesus also associated with. Clowns also had freedom of speech as they were considered to be fools, and could therefore say controversial things. Allen is generally a nice person who displays a remarkable capability for forgiveness: he doesn't hate akuma or Noah despite their apparently evil deeds and wishes to heal them. He even treats people like Kanda with respect, even if he's a little more than willing to argue with them. Still, Allen is clearly just a human, and has human weaknesses and worries like everyone else.

    Something important that actually inspired me to make this thread and that I want to emphasize: the Noah have a circle of crosses on their head. This is very likely to be an allusion to the Crown of Thorns that Jesus wore before being crucified. Really, it's just too much like it to be coincidental, particularly since that crown is such a famous symbol. Another of the stigmata is the bleeding of the hands or wrists (from Jesus being crucified); Tiki's hand was bleeding when he was transforming into that super-Noah.

    And as an afterthought, Kolox and Reinard were saying Lenalee doesn't dress like a nun - actually, new nuns cut their hair very short, as Lenalee's is now. They also wore white (Lenalee's current outfit is white, although she usually does wear black).

    I've probably missed a lot, or didn't think of plenty of things, so please feel free to add anything you've thought of here. It's possible that some of this is coincidental, or that Hoshino herself didn't think of Jesus specifically when adding it, but there just seems like too much to ignore. Sometimes, it's surprising what the authours thought of~
    ~Digital_Eon~




  2. #2
    Kolox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    I am an atheist, but I feel offended with 70% of what is said here. I will not comment.

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    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    One of the apostles also betrayed Jesus - Judas could be an influence on Chaoji, who doesn't like Allen and would probably not hesitate to betray him to, say, Leverrier.
    This case is one of the most interesting and triky parts of Bible, so allow me to explain for those who may not know. We all know the official version - or better say, an official interpretation of this story - Judas has sold Jesus to authorities, which resulted in deaths of both. I (and I'm not the only one) find this version dissatisfying. A lot of writers (like Jorge Luis Borges, Leonid Andreev and others) independently suggested the following explanation of Judas actions, that I personaly like much more.

    At The Last Supper Jesus started making predictions referring to what will happen in the near future. Among other things he said: "One of you will betray me." This triggered a perplexity among his apostles, becasue all of them considered themselves and each other to be truly devoted to Jesus, noone thoght that one of them could be capable of such a odious act. And only one of his apprentices realised the true meaning of this words - it was no prediction, but an order - Jesus wanted someone to betray him, he wanted to be caught by Rome's soldiers, he wanted to be executed, as this was the one and only way for his small religion to become something big, something capable of setting Israel free of Romes terror. An apprentice realised what this order meant - it was an order to become a sacrifice for his masters sake, to become hated and cursed for centuries. It was an order to die, because it is no way for a honorable student to live after he had betrayed his master. And that apostle did what his master ordered - he sold him. Of course, after Jesus's death he could no longer live, so he killed himself.

    So, if Hoshino knows all this (and there is a good chance taht she does know - at least Borges is very famous all over the world (it a pity Andreev is not)) and if she uses it... Heck, taht would make DGM worthy of ebing called The Art.

    Back to the Apostles thing, Lenalee could be a parallel of Peter in the story.
    Do not forget that Peter was the one who betrayed Jesus three times. Do you expect Linalee to do the same?

    Komui seems to play a role similar to Pontius Pilate; he has a role of authority and is involved in the watching - and possible eventual trial - of Allen. Like Pilate, he doesn't believe Allen is guilty, but will likely be forced to do the will of those who have power over him.
    This is another interesting part. There is a version about how Rome's authorities took part in creating Christianity. So:

    Jesus was one of a huge crowd of prophets who Israel was fill with. All of them had a little number of supporters, but neither could pick a fight with the main religion of the country - Judaism. That religion was that factor that united the whole region against Rome, making into quite a troublesome place for Rome to handle. So Pontius Pilate (or someone else) thought of a plan to break it down - by destroying Judaism they wanted to split Israel into several parts, so that it will be mych easier to control it. It was Rome's plane to use Jesus. They have chosen a profet and sacrificed him - and thier agents rised a fuss about it. Soon, a lot of people, who had no interest in that small profet and his religion, became involved and after some time many of them started to support Christianity. As the result, a new, powerful religion was born, that had eventually conquered not only Israel, but even Rome itself.

    I wonder if this may be used here in some way.

    Something important that actually inspired me to make this thread and that I want to emphasize: the Noah have a circle of crosses on their head. This is very likely to be an allusion to the Crown of Thorns that Jesus wore before being crucified. Really, it's just too much like it to be coincidental, particularly since that crown is such a famous symbol. Another of the stigmata is the bleeding of the hands or wrists (from Jesus being crucified); Tiki's hand was bleeding when he was transforming into that super-Noah.
    Thats something we can be 100% sure in.

    And as an afterthought, Kolox and Reinard were saying Lenalee doesn't dress like a nun - actually, new nuns cut their hair very short, as Lenalee's is now. They also wore white (Lenalee's current outfit is white, although she usually does wear black).
    True for hear. But showing you legs to men....

    ...Reinard...
    Awww, thanks. Can you always write it this way? (this probably sounds stupid, but i am extremely picky about this little things) I wonder if there is any way to fix it with the username...

    I'll reread The New Testament soon (I was planning to anyways) and will be ready to add more into discussion.

    P.S. Sorry for making you endure my english >.>
    Last edited by reinard-fox; 01-21-2008 at 05:38 AM.

  4. #4
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reinard-fox View Post
    So, if Hoshino knows all this (and there is a good chance taht she does know - at least Borges is very famous all over the world (it a pity Andreev is not)) and if she uses it... Heck, taht would make DGM worthy of ebing called The Art.
    It would be awesome if she did that, although then it probably wouldn't be Chaoji. The fact that you mentioned master and apprentice makes me wonder if it wouldn't be reversed (ha, pun) for D.Gray-Man - Cross would be the one doing the betrayal intentionally. We know he does feel emotion for people he cares for, as shown by the conversation with Lenalee about Anita. I doubt he'd commit suicide, but he'd probably feel kinda bad about it, and lose the trust of his friends(?).

    Do not forget that Peter was the one who betrayed Jesus three times. Do you expect Linalee to do the same?
    It was a different kind of betrayal. She certainly felt guilty about leaving Allen with Suman, which led to his death (not through Lenalee's actions, though). Either that was meant to be the "betrayal" (as Peter realized what he had done only after the third time, and Lenalee is aware of that), or she's going to accidentally/unknowingly perform some action that leads to trouble for Allen twice more.

    So Pontius Pilate (or someone else) thought of a plan to break it down - by destroying Judaism they wanted to split Israel into several parts, so that it will be mych easier to control it.
    Hm. The Inspector does seem to want to isolate some of the Exorcists - Allen from everyone (as he could be influential), and possibly even people like Lenalee. It'd be a good way of preventing information about the Order from leaking downwards. We've already seen that most of the members of the Order don't associate with people outside of their section. The arrival of Komui - who is closely related to an Exorcist - probably started to unite these groups. It probably wouldn't be in the best interests of those leaders if the underlings found out what they were really planning.

    True for hear. But showing you legs to men....
    She probably wears those uniforms for ease of movement. Being a soldier comes first.

    Awww, I really couldn't comment on your amazing explanation of these controversial events, Reinard. They're really interesting. ^_^ I do hope Hoshino is aware of them, even if she chooses not to use them or only use aspects of them in various ways.
    ~Digital_Eon~




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    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    From what I see all these references to Bible seem pretty random: Hoshino simply takes some events from it and turns them into symbols. This suggests that she is not really planning to develop her story in the similarity with life of Jesus, so I find it hard to base predictions on Bible - simply because we never there is no way to know which event Hoshino will use and which she won't. BUT that doesn't prevent us from trying to predict it, does it?

    Soooo. Lets dance from this "Destructor of time" prophecy of Hevlaska. Although it was hardly officialy established, it seems that it's meanig is "The one who will change the fate of world". It may mean a lot of thing, among which are "Destroyer of a world", "The one who'll change epochs", "Destroyer of humanity". The one that lies in our area of interest is "The one who'll changs epochs", since it is exactly what Jesus did, as the world history can be easily viewed as "before" and "after" him. Because we are yet to read an officially stated explanation of this prophecy, I can not prove that it is this very interpretetion that is a correct one, so let me just assume that it is so for now.

    What does The Destroyer have to do tho change the fate of the world? Firstly, he has to stop Earls plans of its' devastation. From our point of view it may seem that this both sides, who appear to have totally different opinions about the world, have pretty much the same goal - they want to save humanity. What is different is thier way of doing it - Order is trying to prevent mass murder and, by spreading it's religion, to make people purify themselves by performing normal religious procedures, while Earl and Noah support more extreme (and more ancient if we look at the history of Christianity) methods - they prefer to kill filthy humans and start everything over once again. The point of telling you all this things (which you already know anyways) was to show that The Destroyer doesn't actually have to stop Earl to change epoches, as Earls action obviously lead to the same thing. This means that nothing prevents him to stop supporting Order and switch sides - nothing beside his personality. Which can be surpressed or changed, depending on events that will take place in future.

    Secondly, he needs someone to help him. As it is said in Bible a profet alone can't possibly save all of his ships, so he'll need to chose several people and give them power to heal and kill. The strange thing is that God in DGM gave those powers to both sides - Noah have Darl Matter and Exorcists have Innocence - which once again can be taken as a prove of thier equality. As to how those people will be chosen, I have no idea, since Hoshino doesn't necessarily have to follow Bible here. It may be that this people will come to The Destroyer by themselves, or he'll chose them himself - I do not know.

    Third and the last stage of Destruction is Purifying humanity. If The Destroyer chooses Earl, something equal to teh Gerat Flood will occur, for example a fire will fall from the sky, burning everything but those who have a protection of God. If he chooses Order or rejects Earl (he doesn't necessarily have to be with Order to avoid annihilation all but a few humans), He'll probably have to sacrifice himself - if Hoshino chooses to follow Bible till this point. And here a lot of possibilities occur, one of them being betrayal of one of his followers.

    It would be awesome if she did that, although then it probably wouldn't be Chaoji. The fact that you mentioned master and apprentice makes me wonder if it wouldn't be reversed (ha, pun) for D.Gray-Man - Cross would be the one doing the betrayal intentionally. We know he does feel emotion for people he cares for, as shown by the conversation with Lenalee about Anita. I doubt he'd commit suicide, but he'd probably feel kinda bad about it, and lose the trust of his friends(?).
    For now Chaoji is the best candidate on the role of betrayer. He not only has a will to do it, but tool for it as well. But there is one problem with him - even if he is one of Allens "supporters" - he has a high chance to be chosen as one, since he was the one to recive his Innocence inside the Ark, which can be considered as Allens domain - he does not belive in Allen. He thinks of him as of an enemy of Order and humanity, which makes hima shit of a follower. This may work if Hoshino stickes to the official version of betrayal, but it can't if she chooses the alternative one. And even an official version has a problem with it - Chaoji can hardly be considered as someone capable of decieving his "master", which was what Judas did. Chaoji is a straight-forward adn honest person, he can't possibly play a sneaky role. So i belive that he is out of question here.

    So we are at the point were we are to consider several possibilities, out of which only two seem interesting to me - Rabi and Cross. The first one progressed steadily as a chacter till now and it will be no wonder if he founds himself capable of sacrificing himself for the sake of a friend. Cross, on the other hand, never had a problem making his student complete difficult tasks, but will he be able to kill him?

    It was a different kind of betrayal. She certainly felt guilty about leaving Allen with Suman, which led to his death (not through Lenalee's actions, though). Either that was meant to be the "betrayal" (as Peter realized what he had done only after the third time, and Lenalee is aware of that), or she's going to accidentally/unknowingly perform some action that leads to trouble for Allen twice more.
    this part suports my thoughts about Hoshino just randomly taking some symbols from Bible and pacing them into the random parts of the story, since if she was to use this 3 betrayals accorsding to Bible, it should have happened after the beggining of the end, not before.

    Hm. The Inspector does seem to want to isolate some of the Exorcists - Allen from everyone (as he could be influential), and possibly even people like Lenalee. It'd be a good way of preventing information about the Order from leaking downwards. We've already seen that most of the members of the Order don't associate with people outside of their section. The arrival of Komui - who is closely related to an Exorcist - probably started to unite these groups. It probably wouldn't be in the best interests of those leaders if the underlings found out what they were really planning.
    This part seem to have nothing to do with references to Bible and is just Inspector applying "Rise and Rule" principle. Which probely mean that he is not a bad manager at all.

    Awww, I really couldn't comment on your amazing explanation of these controversial events, Reinard. They're really interesting. ^_^ I do hope Hoshino is aware of them, even if she chooses not to use them or only use aspects of them in various ways.
    Thanks
    Last edited by reinard-fox; 01-21-2008 at 05:38 AM.

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    Sherman is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    As for the stigmata, there's no doubt about that. From the start that's been pretty obvious, I think.

    But I agree that there's probably not meant to any real parallel here - it seems like Hoshino probably just took random ideas from Christianity and it using them however s/he likes... OR of course there could be more to it. I definitely do think that we could see a reversal of the Good/Evil roles of the Noah/Order...

    And that "Judas was ordered" theory's pretty cool - I hadn't seen it before. Cheers.

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    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reinard-fox View Post
    From what I see all these references to Bible seem pretty random: Hoshino simply takes some events from it and turns them into symbols. This suggests that she is not really planning to develop her story in the similarity with life of Jesus, so I find it hard to base predictions on Bible - simply because we never there is no way to know which event Hoshino will use and which she won't. BUT that doesn't prevent us from trying to predict it, does it?
    The basic events in Allen's life are still there, and it's probable that he's going to die/nearly die in fighting the Earl. I don't think Hoshino is planning to take every single event from the Bible or make every single event in Allen's life a parallel of that, but as long as the basic storyline is still there...

    Soooo. Lets dance from this "Destructor of time" prophecy of Hevlaska. Although it was hardly officialy established, it seems that it's meanig is "The one who will change the fate of world". It may mean a lot of thing, among which are "Destroyer of a world", "The one who'll change epochs", "Destroyer of humanity". The one that lies in our area of interest is "The one who'll changs epochs", since it is exactly what Jesus did, as the world history can be easily viewed as "before" and "after" him. Because we are yet to read an officially stated explanation of this prophecy, I can not prove that it is this very interpretetion that is a correct one, so let me just assume that it is so for now.
    The idea given in the manga was that it referred to the Earl (with his "Millenium" title), but it could be that it refers to Allen changing the future altogether. If the theory that God wants a corrupt humanity destroyed again is correct, then Allen, by preventing that, could be considered to have destroyed the future - the world is still in existence, but things are different than planned. At any rate, it's still a propechy that predicts the climax of the story and a major event in his life.

    Secondly, he needs someone to help him. As it is said in Bible a profet alone can't possibly save all of his ships, so he'll need to chose several people and give them power to heal and kill. The strange thing is that God in DGM gave those powers to both sides - Noah have Darl Matter and Exorcists have Innocence - which once again can be taken as a prove of thier equality. As to how those people will be chosen, I have no idea, since Hoshino doesn't necessarily have to follow Bible here. It may be that this people will come to The Destroyer by themselves, or he'll chose them himself - I do not know.
    It's probably interesting, then, that Allen is now a General. Generals are the ones who go around the world finding compatible people to use Innocence.

    Third and the last stage of Destruction is Purifying humanity. If The Destroyer chooses Earl, something equal to teh Gerat Flood will occur, for example a fire will fall from the sky, burning everything but those who have a protection of God. If he chooses Order or rejects Earl (he doesn't necessarily have to be with Order to avoid annihilation all but a few humans), He'll probably have to sacrifice himself - if Hoshino chooses to follow Bible till this point. And here a lot of possibilities occur, one of them being betrayal of one of his followers.
    I can't really see Allen staying with the Earl in the end, particularly since the story appears to be leading up to fight between the two. It'd be interesting to see what leads up to that confrontation, though - perhaps Allen is captured by the Order, and that's where the betrayal comes in?

    For now Chaoji is the best candidate on the role of betrayer. He not only has a will to do it, but tool for it as well. But there is one problem with him - even if he is one of Allens "supporters" - he has a high chance to be chosen as one, since he was the one to recive his Innocence inside the Ark, which can be considered as Allens domain - he does not belive in Allen. He thinks of him as of an enemy of Order and humanity, which makes hima shit of a follower. This may work if Hoshino stickes to the official version of betrayal, but it can't if she chooses the alternative one. And even an official version has a problem with it - Chaoji can hardly be considered as someone capable of decieving his "master", which was what Judas did. Chaoji is a straight-forward adn honest person, he can't possibly play a sneaky role. So i belive that he is out of question here.

    So we are at the point were we are to consider several possibilities, out of which only two seem interesting to me - Rabi and Cross. The first one progressed steadily as a chacter till now and it will be no wonder if he founds himself capable of sacrificing himself for the sake of a friend. Cross, on the other hand, never had a problem making his student complete difficult tasks, but will he be able to kill him?
    Tiedoll was the one who gave Chaoji his Innocence (technically), so Chaoji really has no responsibility to support Allen. As for the betrayal, he doesn't have to be sneaky about it - Allen is naive enough that Chaoji could walk up to him and tell him the truth and Allen would just smile and look confused until he got arrested. The real betrayal would be what Allen feels, possibly because he thought the other Exorcists believed him (Chaoji did save him in the Ark, and kept the fact that he still didn't like Allen to himself).

    Lavi is obviously a good candidate for best friend who has to do something difficult (Lenalee could be another option, but I doubt she'd be able to do something like that, and Allen wouldn't ask/want her to), but when you mentioned "master and apprentice", it was difficult to think of anyone but Cross. He does have some... relaxed... morals at times, but it's been shown that Cross does actually have a heart for people he cares for. We don't know how he sees Allen, but I doubt that there's no care for him at all. Cross would probably do something like betray Allen intentionally for good reasons, and feel some guilt about it (maybe he'll have difficulty recognizing the feeling, though =P).

    this part suports my thoughts about Hoshino just randomly taking some symbols from Bible and pacing them into the random parts of the story, since if she was to use this 3 betrayals accorsding to Bible, it should have happened after the beggining of the end, not before.
    Then maybe she's going to have Lenalee make a few more mistakes in the future. She doesn't have to leave them until the end if she incorporates them into the story excellently.

    This part seem to have nothing to do with references to Bible and is just Inspector applying "Rise and Rule" principle. Which probely mean that he is not a bad manager at all.
    He really isn't. Still, the role of Komui probably was influenced, consciously or not, by Pilate... at least, so I think...
    ~Digital_Eon~




  8. #8
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon View Post
    The basic events in Allen's life are still there, and it's probable that he's going to die/nearly die in fighting the Earl. I don't think Hoshino is planning to take every single event from the Bible or make every single event in Allen's life a parallel of that, but as long as the basic storyline is still there...
    The requirment for that is covering all the main spots and convert them into DGM plot. Of course I do not expect Allen to heal the very same number of people that Jesus has healed. But main events should be there.

    The idea given in the manga was that it referred to the Earl (with his "Millenium" title), but it could be that it refers to Allen changing the future altogether. If the theory that God wants a corrupt humanity destroyed again is correct, then Allen, by preventing that, could be considered to have destroyed the future - the world is still in existence, but things are different than planned. At any rate, it's still a propechy that predicts the climax of the story and a major event in his life.
    Of course, everything in a mnga is pretty much built around this prophece. Whatever happens it will play its' major role till the very end.

    It's probably interesting, then, that Allen is now a General. Generals are the ones who go around the world finding compatible people to use Innocence.
    I don't think that his position as a general (which i doubt he will recive in the near future) will help him in his apostels gathering job. Unless Hoshino will make Tsubasa like story with people travaling from place to place gathering supporters. It will be hella long.

    I can't really see Allen staying with the Earl in the end, particularly since the story appears to be leading up to fight between the two. It'd be interesting to see what leads up to that confrontation, though - perhaps Allen is captured by the Order, and that's where the betrayal comes in?
    It may turn out that way. But I agree - Allen's union with Earl harldy makes a lot of sense. Much less then this two fighting each other.

    Tiedoll was the one who gave Chaoji his Innocence (technically), so Chaoji really has no responsibility to support Allen. As for the betrayal, he doesn't have to be sneaky about it - Allen is naive enough that Chaoji could walk up to him and tell him the truth and Allen would just smile and look confused until he got arrested. The real betrayal would be what Allen feels, possibly because he thought the other Exorcists believed him (Chaoji did save him in the Ark, and kept the fact that he still didn't like Allen to himself).
    Come on, Allen is not that badly brain damaged.

    Tiedoll carried and delivered innocence, but it has shown any signes of synchronisation with Chaoji only in Ark. It has probably reacted to Chaoji's will to fight and protect his friends - and this emotion was born because of three factors - all of Chaoji's friends dieing, Anita's words and Allens will to protect. So I think that he can be counted as apprentice.
    Lavi is obviously a good candidate for best friend who has to do something difficult (Lenalee could be another option, but I doubt she'd be able to do something like that, and Allen wouldn't ask/want her to), but when you mentioned "master and apprentice", it was difficult to think of anyone but Cross. He does have some... relaxed... morals at times, but it's been shown that Cross does actually have a heart for people he cares for. We don't know how he sees Allen, but I doubt that there's no care for him at all. Cross would probably do something like betray Allen intentionally for good reasons, and feel some guilt about it (maybe he'll have difficulty recognizing the feeling, though =P).
    I meant master and apprentice in spiritual way. In this case Rabi, who is influenced by Allens philosophy and changed greatly because of his friend make a perfect example of apprentice. While Cross.... We are yet to witnesss his charcater development. As he is now he can only have arole of a supporter, not apprentice of his own student.

    Then maybe she's going to have Lenalee make a few more mistakes in the future. She doesn't have to leave them until the end if she incorporates them into the story excellently.
    Yes, but it makes the parallel weaker.

    He really isn't. Still, the role of Komui probably was influenced, consciously or not, by Pilate... at least, so I think...
    Pilate has only one conversationwith Jesus, Komui - countless. Pilat was always behind the scene, Komui is if front a lot of time. Even if his chcracter was influenced by Pilate, the connection is very shallow. Of course it will become stronger if Komui orders Allens execution for the sake of saving humanity or at least for Order.

  9. #9
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
    Digital_Eon is offline Super Moderator Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by reinard-fox View Post
    The requirment for that is covering all the main spots and convert them into DGM plot. Of course I do not expect Allen to heal the very same number of people that Jesus has healed. But main events should be there.
    I think the main connection is Allen's nice and forgiving attitude towards people. His friendship is kind of healing in its own way - which is definitely a good thing; he's hanging around some very screwed up people.

    I don't think that his position as a general (which i doubt he will recive in the near future) will help him in his apostels gathering job. Unless Hoshino will make Tsubasa like story with people travaling from place to place gathering supporters. It will be hella long.
    He might not actually end up going around to find people, but he still has the title of people who do so.

    Come on, Allen is not that badly brain damaged.

    Tiedoll carried and delivered innocence, but it has shown any signes of synchronisation with Chaoji only in Ark. It has probably reacted to Chaoji's will to fight and protect his friends - and this emotion was born because of three factors - all of Chaoji's friends dieing, Anita's words and Allens will to protect. So I think that he can be counted as apprentice.
    Well, wouldn't you be surprised if someone you thought was nice and at least kind of liked you suddenly told you they were responsible for your arrest, torture, and death in the near future? Allen's a nice guy. He wouldn't expect it.

    As for the apprentice thing, maybe... but what counts in the story is that Tiedoll is technically his master no matter what Allen may have taught him about other things.

    I meant master and apprentice in spiritual way. In this case Rabi, who is influenced by Allens philosophy and changed greatly because of his friend make a perfect example of apprentice. While Cross.... We are yet to witnesss his charcater development. As he is now he can only have arole of a supporter, not apprentice of his own student.
    Yeah, Lavi does seem like a good candidate when you say it in that way. His issues also revolve around "responsibility" and "duty", and making that kind of necessary betrayal knowing what would happen to Allen - no matter what Allen thinks - would reconcile him with his Bookman side... and Lavi really does need to become a Bookman.

    Pilate has only one conversationwith Jesus, Komui - countless. Pilat was always behind the scene, Komui is if front a lot of time. Even if his chcracter was influenced by Pilate, the connection is very shallow. Of course it will become stronger if Komui orders Allens execution for the sake of saving humanity or at least for Order.
    Yeah, I was thinking of a future event that involves a trial for Allen. He'll be playing the role of Pilate, anyway... and it's true that, even with the evidence present, Komui doesn't believe Allen has that connection. It seems like he based that on the evidence, too, not merely personal feelings.
    ~Digital_Eon~




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    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon View Post
    I think the main connection is Allen's nice and forgiving attitude towards people. His friendship is kind of healing in its own way - which is definitely a good thing; he's hanging around some very screwed up people.
    This is enough only if we are searching for similarities of characeters. The n we can say - oh the are alike - case closed. But if we want to try to base our predictions on plot similarities, that won't be quite enough.

    He might not actually end up going around to find people, but he still has the title of people who do so.
    Unless he really goes to search for compatible people himself I do not see any connection between him becoming General and bond with Jesus. He does not need the title to do what Jesus did; what's required is a certain type of character and ability to influence and change people around him. That he already possesses.

    Well, wouldn't you be surprised if someone you thought was nice and at least kind of liked you suddenly told you they were responsible for your arrest, torture, and death in the near future? Allen's a nice guy. He wouldn't expect it.
    If that certain someone was passionately opposing my decisions on teh battlefield while doubting my ability and my right to do my job adn then was running around throwing gloomy glances at my I would suspect something. Or at least expect something to happen.

    As for the apprentice thing, maybe... but what counts in the story is that Tiedoll is technically his master no matter what Allen may have taught him about other things.
    I was not talking about technicall side of the matter, I meant it in the same way as in Lavi's case. A bond between sould.

    Yeah, Lavi does seem like a good candidate when you say it in that way. His issues also revolve around "responsibility" and "duty", and making that kind of necessary betrayal knowing what would happen to Allen - no matter what Allen thinks - would reconcile him with his Bookman side... and Lavi really does need to become a Bookman.
    As i see it this decision of betrayal for the sake of his friend's wish and for the sake of chaneging history will actually contradict his Bookman self - becasue he was supposed to step aside and record, not interfer and change the flow of history.

    Yeah, I was thinking of a future event that involves a trial for Allen. He'll be playing the role of Pilate, anyway... and it's true that, even with the evidence present, Komui doesn't believe Allen has that connection. It seems like he based that on the evidence, too, not merely personal feelings.
    In this case parrallel becomes real. The question is if Hoshino is going to use it or not.

 

 
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