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  1. #21
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digi
    The Order already seems a bit desperate - they're supposed to be saving the world yet they're willing to let plenty of people die (like Finders and even Exorcists) to achieve their goals. I wouldn't put it past the founders to do such things in order to achieve their goals.
    They seem to lack firepower to attack vigorously, let alone defend all thier members (like finders who can only work as info gatheres). If it is so, then letting finders die makes sense, but killing exorcist meaninglessly does not at all. They shall stick to any strong weapon or else they will soon reach the stage where all they would be able to do is to pray.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digi
    Fortunately, Allen probably will have an early warning - he'd be the first to know if he was becoming a Noah, for instance. ^_~
    There is only one problem here - Allen simply may not understand what happened to him. Pretty much like Ophelia in Claymore who didn't notice her own awakening.

  2. #22
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reinard-fox View Post
    They seem to lack firepower to attack vigorously, let alone defend all thier members (like finders who can only work as info gatheres). If it is so, then letting finders die makes sense, but killing exorcist meaninglessly does not at all. They shall stick to any strong weapon or else they will soon reach the stage where all they would be able to do is to pray.
    Exorcists shouldn't die meaninglessly - this isn't Claymore - but the Order still lets them die for reasons like "protecting the Generals" which means numerous Exorcists die for one General. Yes, in terms of battle, it makes sense, but it does mean that the Order really doesn't care about humanity like they say they do - or at least, that's not the reason they're opposing the Earl.

    There is only one problem here - Allen simply may not understand what happened to him. Pretty much like Ophelia in Claymore who didn't notice her own awakening.
    He'd probably notice if his head started bleeding. I mean, if he did actually become a Noah and one of the other Noah (or the Earl) came to tell him, he'd know. =P Allen may be a master of denial, but he's not so bad that he couldn't look in the mirror and think he looks normal.
    ~Digital_Eon~




  3. #23
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Nothing prevents Order's higher ups from having reasons other then just defending humanity. We still do not know Earls goal (apocalypsis just sounds...lame), it may be taking over the human world (like he did with Japan) or something differnt.

    I thought that it is normal for a military organisation to "exchagne" lives of its' less meaningful members for lives of more meaningful members, which means that sacrifycing several exorcists is OK if it means saving all-mighty general.

    Another problem - someone needs to give him a mirror. Bad if it would be Inspector.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by reinard-fox View Post
    Nothing prevents Order's higher ups from having reasons other then just defending humanity. We still do not know Earls goal (apocalypsis just sounds...lame), it may be taking over the human world (like he did with Japan) or something differnt.
    I think he does want the end of humanity, but sort of like what God wanted in the original Noah story - to destroy these corrupted humans and replace them (with the Noah, maybe?). The Order might just want to oppose that, or him in any way.

    I thought that it is normal for a military organisation to "exchagne" lives of its' less meaningful members for lives of more meaningful members, which means that sacrifycing several exorcists is OK if it means saving all-mighty general.
    It is, but it's probably not a good idea when the Order is supposed to be saving humanity.

    Another problem - someone needs to give him a mirror. Bad if it would be Inspector.
    There are plenty of those. Allen's always seeing his shadow there, after all.
    ~Digital_Eon~




  5. #25
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digi
    I think he does want the end of humanity, but sort of like what God wanted in the original Noah story - to destroy these corrupted humans and replace them (with the Noah, maybe?). The Order might just want to oppose that, or him in any way.
    In this case this religious Order is playing against it's own god

    Quote Originally Posted by Digi
    It is, but it's probably not a good idea when the Order is supposed to be saving humanity.
    Nobody seem to think of Exorcists as of human anyway :\ Even civilians in the very begining of the manga were very surprised when Allen told them who he is - it looked as if they expected some monster, not ordinary-looking boy to be an exsortist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digi
    There are plenty of those. Allen's always seeing his shadow there, after all.
    So he will notice that he has become a Noah by seeing that crest appearing on his forehead? He will hardly be the first one to see it then. He needs to feel some changes approaching not to simply see them, or elase he would fail to leave order before getting arrested.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by reinard-fox View Post
    In this case this religious Order is playing against it's own god
    Exactly. They hate the Noah because the Order is full of Satanists!


    Nobody seem to think of Exorcists as of human anyway :\ Even civilians in the very begining of the manga were very surprised when Allen told them who he is - it looked as if they expected some monster, not ordinary-looking boy to be an exsortist.
    And Chaoji was surprised at how human they were, too. Still, that doesn't mean the Finders aren't human, either... the Order is still playing around with them.

    So he will notice that he has become a Noah by seeing that crest appearing on his forehead? He will hardly be the first one to see it then. He needs to feel some changes approaching not to simply see them, or elase he would fail to leave order before getting arrested.
    Who knows. I guess we can just hope he wakes up in the morning before Link and notices it then. I'm sure he could break out after being arrested, though - or maybe the others will help him escape (Lenalee, for instance, has shown that she can hold onto him for fairly long-distance travel... if Lavi doesn't get his Innocence back by then, that is).
    ~Digital_Eon~




  7. #27
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digi
    Exactly. They hate the Noah because the Order is full of Satanists!
    Well, it's hard to love the god who wants to kill you :\

    Quote Originally Posted by Digi
    And Chaoji was surprised at how human they were, too. Still, that doesn't mean the Finders aren't human, either... the Order is still playing around with them.
    You are right, Order doesn't seem to care much about it's members besides those who are strong enough to be irreplaceble. Which doesn't adjust with it's goals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digi
    Who knows. I guess we can just hope he wakes up in the morning before Link and notices it then. I'm sure he could break out after being arrested, though - or maybe the others will help him escape (Lenalee, for instance, has shown that she can hold onto him for fairly long-distance travel... if Lavi doesn't get his Innocence back by then, that is).
    Yeah, we can only hope that. As for breaking through - it does seem possible only if we count Cross in - or else otehr generals will simply slaughter Allen in a couple of seconds.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by reinard-fox View Post
    Well, it's hard to love the god who wants to kill you :\
    Well, Abraham loved the God that wanted him to kill his son! ...According to legends. Anyway, they can't exactly say they support God if they're going against him (possibly).

    You are right, Order doesn't seem to care much about it's members besides those who are strong enough to be irreplaceble. Which doesn't adjust with it's goals.
    So there's obviously another reason they want to oppose the Earl. Innocence obviously doesn't want to save humanity, either, not if it kills its users...

    Yeah, we can only hope that. As for breaking through - it does seem possible only if we count Cross in - or else otehr generals will simply slaughter Allen in a couple of seconds.
    He'd probably be tried for heresy first, so no instant death (although there would be torture). I'm sure there'd be a way of sneaking him out, though (maybe with Cross's co-operation? Cross would want Allen alive if he had any future plans relating to the destruction of the Noah).
    ~Digital_Eon~




  9. #29
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digi
    Well, Abraham loved the God that wanted him to kill his son! ...According to legends. Anyway, they can't exactly say they support God if they're going against him (possibly).
    Well, yeah, it's either "support god" or "save humanity" here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digi
    So there's obviously another reason they want to oppose the Earl. Innocence obviously doesn't want to save humanity, either, not if it kills its users...
    I hope all this problems we are talking about right now are not simply plot holes, because that would really suck. What is Innocence is still in question. If Innocence have come from God, why does it help humans? Isn't it supposed to destroy them as this is the God's will? (or am i mixing things up again?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Digi
    He'd probably be tried for heresy first, so no instant death (although there would be torture). I'm sure there'd be a way of sneaking him out, though (maybe with Cross's co-operation? Cross would want Allen alive if he had any future plans relating to the destruction of the Noah).
    Without Crosses help Allen is dead for sure. So it seems that both of them need each other - Cross can't win the war without Allens help.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by reinard-fox View Post
    Well, yeah, it's either "support god" or "save humanity" here.
    And technically the Catholics are supposed to go with God... it wouldn't be destroying humanity, anyway. It's just getting rid of the bad eggs. :3


    I hope all this problems we are talking about right now are not simply plot holes, because that would really suck. What is Innocence is still in question. If Innocence have come from God, why does it help humans? Isn't it supposed to destroy them as this is the God's will? (or am i mixing things up again?)
    I doubt it's a plot hole - the story hasn't gotten to the point where everything has been revealed yet. If we ever learn about Noah's memory, some of these questions might be answered, but knowing who's really "good" in this battle is probably the last question that we'll see answered.

    Without Crosses help Allen is dead for sure. So it seems that both of them need each other - Cross can't win the war without Allens help.
    Without anyone's help, Allen is dead. I guess another Exorcist could help him, but it'd be difficult... so yeah, he might need Cross's help yet again.
    ~Digital_Eon~




 

 
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