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  1. #301
    Kolox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    You actually proved nothing.

    Noah and Akuma's power is the same - the reason why Allen can't detect Noah is because they are not trapped souls - but they use the same energy, Dark matter - like all Exorcists who use innocence.

    It can be related to be Noah power, because Allen is a human and he has a dark matter. Like you said : Human + Dark Matter = Noah.

    They eye might mattered - maybe it helped him understand something he never saw before. His eyes gives him a power to see that what other people don't see..

  2. #302
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    Digital_Eon is offline Super Moderator Community Builder
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    The power isn't the same, but the origin is. That doesn't mean that Allen's eye is the same as having Noah powers, since it's JUST an akuma-detector. There is no reason to believe that it's a source or indicator of Noah powers any more than we should think that akuma can use special Noah techniques or that Noah are akuma or can use their weapons.

    Also, Allen's eye detects akuma, but it isn't an akuma. Akuma are dark matter skeletons or whatever. His eye is a CURSE. Also, Noah-ness is determined by genetics, which awaken Noah's memory, do they not? Saying that Noah are just humans with dark matter in them isn't quite correct. We don't know that much about them, but that seems rather simplistic, and makes one think that a Noah could simply be "created" just by sticking dark matter into a person. That obviously isn't true.

    Allen's eye matters to his personal goals, not to his controller powers.

    ...but anyway, the point is not about that comparison, but about whether the eye was enough evidence to assume that Allen could become a Noah, and no, it isn't.
    ~Digital_Eon~




  3. #303
    Kolox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Eh - of course it isn't the same - it's like comparing Rinali power with Allen power - but we are talking about the same material they use, the same participle and alignment.

    It's quite possible that Noah can see those souls too - at least one could have that impression when Road was killing the Akuma she had with her. Can really prove it now, it's a hypothesis.

    Little we know about the Noah to tell - maybe there is houndred of people who are Noah-compatible but Earl chooses only the strongest ones. Allen could happen to be one.

    Again, little we know about the dark matter - whatever it's curse or what, we cannot explain it. I could say that having dark matter inside you is a curse itself.

    Allen has really little control over his eye, like it was proven many times - everything happens automatically.

    The fact is, you can state such thing if we don't really know anything.

  4. #304
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
    Digital_Eon is offline Super Moderator Community Builder
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    It's more like comparing the use of Innocence by Exorcists compared to... well, it isn't used for anything else, but the use is totally different to the point that it'd be hard to draw a connection between them based on anything other than the raw power, and you wouldn't say that the other use means that they're also Exorcists.

    Road is an unusual case. Presumably, if the Noah could see the souls, they would be more sympathetic to them, or at least a little less evil.

    Essentially, what I'm arguing is not a connection or the lack of one, but what you said about how Allen's cursed eye could be used to predict that he'd become a Noah. -_-;; And it can't. That's all. That theory was based on the traitor and events around said traitor, as well as Mana - NOT his eye.
    ~Digital_Eon~




  5. #305
    Kolox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    I think it's pretty much the same - while Noah are humans equipped with Dark matter, Akuma are human's soul input into Dark Matter - but overall, it's the same - it's just that Noah are more powerful since they have their original bodies.

    Really ? I wouldn't give a shit. If I chose to become a Noah who is a bringer of destruction to all human race, why would I care about some souls of people who were already dead.

    Well, the answer probably resides in not "Is Allen connected to Noah" but "Why traitor betrayed" - I can't see Noah willingly betraying Earl - so I think that's where the connection comes. My theory would be that are different people compatible to dark matter, like there are people compatible to Innocence. Allen and the Traitor have something that doesn't make them feel obligated to fallow Earl.

    Also, we don't know what happened to Traitor - maybe he isn't dead.

  6. #306
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
    Digital_Eon is offline Super Moderator Community Builder
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    We don't know enough about Noah to say that. For all we know, they could have manipulated Dark Matter in some other way, or just be naturally gifted, or... whatever.

    Obviously, Noah's memory has some traumatic things in it, so I doubt they were just naturally evil people who don't care about humans (Tiki does, for one).

    I don't see why one Noah would betray the others, since they seem to be so loyal to their side. It seems more likely that there was some other reason for the betrayal (if it's Mana, obviously the choice of Allen would matter - possibly to save him) that didn't have to do with a lack of support for the Earl and other Noah. Remember, they believe that what they're doing is right. It doesn't seem right that a Noah would want to BETRAY by giving powers to what seems like an average little kid who would just end up being another Noah.

    The traitor is dead. The Earl stated that to be true, because he killed him (and again, if it's Mana, he is DEFINITELY dead).
    ~Digital_Eon~




  7. #307
    Kolox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    If Mana changed because of Allen, that would be such a rip-off - it happened in FSN (from this point you might stop reading but I will still write it). Emiya Kiritsgu was loyal magus of Einzbern family, yet he forfeited the holy grail which he was supposed to bring and commanded Saber to destroy it - upon finding the boy, sole survivor of the massacre Kiritsgu was reason of, he took him and adopted him. He wasn't much of a step father, but this event changed him completely from cold hearted killer to kind old man. He cut off all his connections to Einzberns (also thoery that he couldn't face his daughter, Ilyasviel - which joined the holy grail war hoping she would kill her father, she changed her object of revenge to Shirou when she learnt he was her fathers adopted son)....

    ..well, all right - FSN had it more complicated and the story I presented is the simple one, because I forgot to include Kotomine's influence, Ilya's mother death and betraying Tokiomi Tohsaka... and also the great theory behind Shirou's true family (that one is awesome, so many hints left).

    ..Mana died from accident - I don't think Earl would just drive him over...

  8. #308
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
    Digital_Eon is offline Super Moderator Community Builder
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    Mana wouldn't have to have a dramatic personality change. We've seen that Noah can still retain feelings of attachment towards other humans as Noah, and I don't see why raising a little kid as your own wouldn't evoke such a feeling of attachment. Passing control of powers could just be a sign of that - he would rather have Allen live/be safe than himself, because that's just the way a parent feels. Doesn't mean he wasn't a perfect Noah who killed things. Doesn't mean he was actually a nice human being in any other way.

    ...but that's all speculation since it might not have been him.

    Also, Kolox, in the manga, it doesn't say how Mana died, just that he did. The anime screwed that part up.
    ~Digital_Eon~




  9. #309
    Kolox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    He wasn't shown as very caring father - and furthermore, he worked at circus - that's how they met.

    ...I hope he is not him.

    I see...

  10. #310
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    He wasn't really shown at all in the manga. We just know that he worked in a circus, raised Allen the deformed baby, and really did love his son despite not always showing it. On the other hand, he was kind of a jackass as an akuma (attacking Allen ON HIS OWN without being ordered to, and then screaming curses), and did apparently tell Allen that he was abandoned, so I guess those count against him.

    I hope it's Mana. If not, we might never learn anything about him... or it could mean Mana has a cheesier role...
    ~Digital_Eon~




 

 
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