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  1. #31
    jamie1990 is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    First of all, just because a series is aimed towards one gender, doesn't mean it can't also be aimed towards the other. I never said that D.gray-man wasn't aimed at boys as well.

    No, Prince of Tennis really is aimed at girls. do you think it just turned out by accident that the vast majority of it's fanbase are female? The mangaka and editors aren't idiots; they know full well who will like what they publish. And as long as it sells well and they don't get complaints, why should they care? You've probably noticed that many shounen mangas have a lot more crap nowadays such as guys who look like girls and less gritty art than they did ten years ago. Do you attribute this all to mangakas happening to simultaneously develop a personal preference?

    tl;dr
    "published in a shounen magazine = not for girls" isn't true anymore.

  2. #32
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    Published in a shounen magazine = aimed towards boys. That's just a fact. Prince of Tennis was probably INTENDED for boys at first; I agree that it may have changed because of its fanbase, but I don't see how it's at all like a shoujo manga. There's no romance, and that's one thing girls LOVE. Besides, guys don't like reading about ugly guys as much, either (I'm sure).

    Hoshino drawing pretty men probably has nothing to do with a female fanbase for DGM and everything to do with the fact that she likes pretty men.
    ~Digital_Eon~




  3. #33
    jamie1990 is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon View Post
    Published in a shounen magazine = aimed towards boys. That's just a fact.
    I'm not and never have disputed that. I take issue with you saying that shounen mangas aren't for girls which isn't true anymore when you have mangas like prince of tennis Shaman King and D.Gray-man which are clearly written with attracting girls as a high priority.
    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon View Post
    Prince of Tennis was probably INTENDED for boys at first; I agree that it may have changed because of its fanbase, but I don't see how it's at all like a shoujo manga. There's no romance, and that's one thing girls LOVE. Besides, guys don't like reading about ugly guys as much, either (I'm sure).
    Oh come on. Mangakas go through extensive negotiations with their editors about these things. Somehow accidentally appealing to the wrong fanbase is very unlikely anyway. but when you consider the homosexual subtext as well it's downright unplausible! The fact that it isn't like what you normally consider a shoujo manga is irrelevant. Weiss kreuz isn't either but girls love it to bits.
    (this next part is in reference to the underlined section) BULLSHIT! You know nothing! as a whole my genre would, if forced, much prefer to read about the rugged, manly man end of the spectrum than the meek, flat-chested, little girl with short hair end.
    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon View Post
    Hoshino drawing pretty men probably has nothing to do with a female fanbase for DGM and everything to do with the fact that she likes pretty men.
    You're looking at this through rose-tinted spectacles. I don't doubt that she does like pretty men as well, but just look at all the chapter covers, official artwork and character designs and tell me she does it all the way she does ENTIRELY for the sake of self-indulgence.

  4. #34
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamie1990 View Post
    I'm not and never have disputed that. I take issue with you saying that shounen mangas aren't for girls which isn't true anymore when you have mangas like prince of tennis Shaman King and D.Gray-man which are clearly written with attracting girls as a high priority.
    *sigh* Shounen manga are NOT intended for girls. You're wrong when you say otherwise, because that's the whole point of it being in a SHOUNEN magazine. Face the facts: you're not right here.

    Oh come on. Mangakas go through extensive negotiations with their editors about these things. Somehow accidentally appealing to the wrong fanbase is very unlikely anyway. but when you consider the homosexual subtext as well it's downright unplausible! The fact that it isn't like what you normally consider a shoujo manga is irrelevant. Weiss kreuz isn't either but girls love it to bits.
    What homosexual subtext? I have yet to read a shounen manga (besides anything CLAMP) that has the main characters be homosexual. In Prince of Tennis, there's no romance whatsoever; gay or not. Girls misinterpret that if they're stupid or desperate, however. Anyway, it probably just appealed to a WIDER audience than just young boys. I doubt only girls are reading it.

    (this next part is in reference to the underlined section) BULLSHIT! You know nothing! as a whole my genre would, if forced, much prefer to read about the rugged, manly man end of the spectrum than the meek, flat-chested, little girl with short hair end.
    Probably true, but rugged manly men aren't necessarily "ugly". At any rate, manga with weak little girly protagonists (I assume that's what you meant?) are probably meant to appeal to little Japanese boys, as in Prince of Tennis: Japanese boys are exactly like that! If they want a manga that they can relate to, are they going to read Berserk, or are they going to read something like that?

    You're looking at this through rose-tinted spectacles. I don't doubt that she does like pretty men as well, but just look at all the chapter covers, official artwork and character designs and tell me she does it all the way she does ENTIRELY for the sake of self-indulgence.
    Well, DGM is successful among both genders. Chapter covers don't seem odd to me. Character designs are the bishounen example (the pretty men), and they're all based on people she knows, anyway (she's stated this to be true). Official artwork? Like... in volumes? ALL self-indulgence. Actually, yes, I'd say that Hoshino just likes drawing that way, and no one seems to be objecting, so she keeps on drawing like that.
    ~Digital_Eon~




  5. #35
    jamie1990 is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Oh lawd! I don’t know what you’re sighing for. You’re not the one arguing against some kind of dull, semi-reflective brick wall.
    Let’s look at it like this. You agree that a lot of girls read shounen manga like yourself right? Relatively recent shounen manga like deathnote, katekyo hitman reborn, shaman king, prince of tennis, inuyasha and D.Gray-man. By dogmatically saying what you are, you are implicating that publishers, editors and mangakas are clueless fucks who somehow aren’t aware of the fanbase of their own damn manga, or choose to ignore it rather than capitalising on it and increasing the number of readers! What you’re preaching is a fucking blanket statement which presents itself as universally true and leaves no room for anything to the contrary. And as such it’s wrong. Perhaps you meant to say that "Generally shounen manga aren't intended for girls" "most shounen manga are not intended for girls" or "shounen manga are not primarily intended for girls". Any of those would be fine.

    You’re canadian right? Is english not your first language or something? Subtext by definition isn’t spelt out, hence the name. You choose not to acknowledge it because you find it offensive or something, which I can’t for the life of me understand because as often as not the author intends for it to be there and knows full well the result of what will happen if they show exceedingly attractive, teenage boys hug each other, put their heads on each other’s shoulders and generally show disinterest in the other sex.
    Quote Originally Posted by digital Eon
    I doubt only girls are reading it.
    I never once said that was the case. See:
    Quote Originally Posted by jamie1990
    First of all, just because a series is aimed towards one gender, doesn't mean it can't also be aimed towards the other.
    You seriously have to stop responding to people as though they’ve written something completely different. You do it all the time. It isn’t effective, or intelligent, or edgy or anything else. It comes off as just a vain attempt to try and change the argument because you can’t think of an adequate rebuttal for what’s there.
    Quote Originally Posted by digital Eon
    At any rate, manga with weak little girly protagonists (I assume that's what you meant?) are probably meant to appeal to little Japanese boys, as in Prince of Tennis: Japanese boys are exactly like that! If they want a manga that they can relate to, are they going to read Berserk, or are they going to read something like that?
    “Oh lolololol let’s generalize the fuck out of an entire nation’s male youth!”
    And do you think having a main character you can relate to is the most important facotor? The most popular shounen mangas feature real heroes and role models, not bland, self-insertion male leads.

    Yeah. You’re really just proving my point about the rose-tinted spectacles. Is it that hard for you to accept that realistically the situation is probably grey rather than black and white?

  6. #36
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamie1990 View Post
    Oh lawd! I donít know what youíre sighing for. Youíre not the one arguing against some kind of dull, semi-reflective brick wall.
    Letís look at it like this. You agree that a lot of girls read shounen manga like yourself right? Relatively recent shounen manga like deathnote, katekyo hitman reborn, shaman king, prince of tennis, inuyasha and D.Gray-man. By dogmatically saying what you are, you are implicating that publishers, editors and mangakas are clueless fucks who somehow arenít aware of the fanbase of their own damn manga, or choose to ignore it rather than capitalising on it and increasing the number of readers! What youíre preaching is a fucking blanket statement which presents itself as universally true and leaves no room for anything to the contrary. And as such itís wrong. Perhaps you meant to say that "Generally shounen manga aren't intended for girls" "most shounen manga are not intended for girls" or "shounen manga are not primarily intended for girls". Any of those would be fine.
    Can we leave the personal insults out of this? I'm arguing against someone who won't admit that they're wrong. That's bad enough.

    And yes, that's what I'm saying... obviously, the wider audience a manga appeals to, the better. However, that doesn't mean that manga-ka are going to do everything possible to make their story appeal more to girls, or older men, or anyone else. Their first audience is little boys, and that's what they're going to write for, and if something that would appeal to girls wouldn't appeal to boys, they'd throw that right out the window.

    Youíre canadian right? Is english not your first language or something? Subtext by definition isnít spelt out, hence the name. You choose not to acknowledge it because you find it offensive or something, which I canít for the life of me understand because as often as not the author intends for it to be there and knows full well the result of what will happen if they show exceedingly attractive, teenage boys hug each other, put their heads on each otherís shoulders and generally show disinterest in the other sex. I never once said that was the case. See:
    You seriously have to stop responding to people as though theyíve written something completely different. You do it all the time. It isnít effective, or intelligent, or edgy or anything else. It comes off as just a vain attempt to try and change the argument because you canít think of an adequate rebuttal for whatís there.
    ďOh lolololol letís generalize the fuck out of an entire nationís male youth!Ē
    And do you think having a main character you can relate to is the most important facotor? The most popular shounen mangas feature real heroes and role models, not bland, self-insertion male leads.
    If you insult me one more time, I'm going to ban you. That's just rude, and it's not part of constructive debate.

    In Japanese culture, it's okay for guys to hug each other. It doesn't mean they're gay, it just means that they're friends. In other words, having guys hugging each other doesn't mean shit in the way of gay romance unless it's clearly meant to be intimate hugging or nearly going further (which, I might add, it hasn't, in Prince of Tennis). This is something I've heard from people who live in/have been to Japan, and that I've observed myself. You think maybe that's why the manga-ka shows guys hugging? Because maybe, just maybe, it's NORMAL?

    As for your quote, yes, if you took it out of context, it looks unbiased. However, in the context of your argument...

    Since when do the most popular shounen manga feature role models? Kids like manga such as Naruto because they can associate with the male character. If a kid wants a role model only, he'll go read Berserk or something; the point of shounen manga (and shoujo, I might add) is to give the kid a main character that they can relate to AND look up to. "Hey, that guy's a ninja, and he kicks ass, but his personality is just like mine!"

    Yeah. Youíre really just proving my point about the rose-tinted spectacles. Is it that hard for you to accept that realistically the situation is probably grey rather than black and white?
    How am I proving your point? I was looking at DGM and thinking that it probably is Hoshino's self-indulgence.
    ~Digital_Eon~




  7. #37
    jamie1990 is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Oh thatís what you are saying? Thatís strange, because that isnít what you were saying. If thatís the case then surely you agree that your previous statement is wrong since what you said just now strongly implies that sometimes the creators of manga will try to varying extents, provided it doesnít adversely effect the popularity with their primary target audience, to get other demographics such as girls to read them as well? And that as such some shounen mangas are intended to be read by girls as well as boys? If so then Iím glad you finally reconsidered your position

    An insult would be comparing you to a brick wall of some sort. That there is an innocent question, phrased in a patronising way (we have each patronised the other in the course of this argument. Itís a rhetorical technique). Based on your post it genuinely seemed as though you didnít know what subtext meant. Being Canadian I wondered whether French might have been your mother tongue or something.

    Re Japanese culture, Iíll have to take your word on that. Though it doesnít go any way towards explaining why most of the cast show no interest in the opposite sex.

    I think you donít know what a rolemodel is. Naruto is a role model: staying strong, brave, straightforward, kind in face of adversity, etc. ; Guttsís is far less of one, if at all. But weíre getting off track here. Suffice to say that there isnít ďone trueĒ point of shounen (how the heck would you apply that to gag-comedy?) and that shounen mangas actually have role model protagonists nearly the whole damn time!

  8. #38
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    I don't believe that shounen manga are meant to be read by girls; I do believe that other demographics may be considered after a manga has begun. Note that I'm not just referring to "girls" here. In that case, though, we're arguing nearly the same point, just about the degree to which it occurs, and I don't think we'll get anywhere with this debate.

    And I'm not just referring to the Canadian comment (although no, English is my first language).

    Prince of Tennis characters probably don't show a lot of interest because they're involved in tennis... well, and some of the younger guys are just barely hitting puberty. It doesn't mean that they're interested in guys. Anyway, plenty of shounen manga don't have any real romance; Black Cat didn't, and I can't find very much in Hikaru no Go, either.

    (On a DGM note, spoilers for the next chapter are out. They look good.)
    ~Digital_Eon~




  9. #39
    Joachim Dragoon is offline Senior Member Frequent Poster
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    I don't see whats the big deal with the bishounen type anyway I mean in America there are what we call pretty boys and then there are rugged guys. I think Cross fitts both those types well Im referring to the beard and side burns.

  10. #40
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    Cross is just good looking, period. Of course, it makes plenty of sense when you realize how many lovers he has while needing money from everyone. ^_^
    ~Digital_Eon~




 

 
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