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  1. #41
    Kolox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon View Post
    If you take out Allen (who seems to be the only character in the manga who wants to do everything possible to save all humans) and Rinari (since she's starting to think like Allen), the Exorcists and Noah really aren't that different, except that they're fighting each other. They're humans who care about their friends and beliefs to the point where they're willing to kill and accept the deaths of humans. That's just it.
    True only for Noah - Exorcist wants to save as many humans as possible. Actually, Exorcist will always be the one who fights for 'right' ideals, since they are protecting themselves and their own species - there is nothing evil in that, it's how nature works. While Noah might as well be a new species which can't coexist in that world and so it's necessary for them to destroy it if they want to survive. If we think about it like that, none of the sides are wrong.

    By the way - if Exorcist, by killing one Noah can save the lifes of million people, then is it wrong ? - the all 'Hero' idea was the fact that he sacrifaced minority of people to protect majority of people (FSN reference )
    Last edited by Kolox; 06-26-2007 at 07:31 AM. Reason: forgot question mark

  2. #42
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
    Digital_Eon is offline Super Moderator Community Builder
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    Well, we don't actually know what the Exorcists themselves are fighting for. Allen and Rinari want to protect everyone, but Rabi and Bookman are only there to record history (recent scenes show that they don't *really* care about the lives of humans, or shouldn't), and other Exorcists (like Suman) have made decisions that compromised the lives of regular humans. Also, Rinari's past has shown us that the Exorcists don't have a choice in fighting. They're probably just trying to keep themselves alive.

    Just like the Noah... they don't have a choice in it either. I'm sure that if there were Noah that didn't kill, they'd be attacked by the Order anyway, because they're different. (It's kind of reminding me of Elfen Lied, except with a lesser imbalance of power.) And then there's the Earl... who knows what influence he has. Still, characters like Road and Jasdevi show that the Noah are still human; Road only started to try and kill people when someone close to her had "died", and Jasdevi just wanted Allen to pay his debts (and then thought Crowely was a monster). It makes me feel bad for them...

    What's that last part about? That they shouldn't kill a small group to save a large group, or that they SHOULD kill that small group?
    ~Digital_Eon~




  3. #43
    Kolox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Rabi and Bookman were supposed to not be real Exorcist, but you can't say Rabi was a guy to ignore other humans. Nor any of exorcist used life of other humans to achieve his goals - even Kanda didn't, he actually considers help from ordinary humans as a nuisance since they can't help him and they only drag him down.

    And well - Exorcists and Black Order are desperate to survive - hence the experiments which were performed on Rinali (someone needed to be a genuine pig, but they didn't intended to kill her nor they do it for pure pleasure - they did it for the sake of survival).

    Noah might want to survive too - but their methods aren't actually the one which would bring them together with ordinary humans. And that's their choice - and I can clearly understands humans hating Noahs (come on - Akuma's used to be human, but they became mindless killer - and Noahs are the ones controlling Akuma's).

    (I think your interpretetion of Road and Jasdevi was a little off - Road was considering humans as 'doll's' which she could play with, so she didn't want to destroy her toys untill she got bored with them - and Jasdevi reason for trying to kill the exorcist team is just too ... stupid. Go to the court and sue him - freaky fish guy !!)

    What would you choose if would have a chance to protect 10000 by killing 10 people ? (no one from them is actually related to you in any way).

  4. #44
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    No, none of the Exorcists have actually directly used humans to achieve their goals, but the Noah haven't, either. Tiki even has human friends that he cares for, too. The similarity is that they care less for humanity than other goals (such as friends/beliefs/power/etc.), which is why they can kill each other and fight in dangerous places without little worry or sadness. Everyone was upset when Anita and Mahoja died because they had gotten to know them; Lavi even said "this is hard", when he realized that they were dying. He's been an Exorcist for two years, yet only NOW is upset about the akuma victims?

    They're desperate, but it just means that the Exorcists are forced into doing what they do; given the choice, would all of them have joined the Order and save the world?

    I can understand humans hating Noah too, but the Noah are also human. People like Chaoji are just ordinary, corrupted humans... like everyone else in the story. Even if they are making it difficult for others to survive, do THEY have a choice in it?

    (Road spoke of Rinari as a doll, and did not even indicate that she would die - at ANY point in the manga. Considering that she's supposed to kill and WANT to kill an Exorcist, that's a bit unusual. Jasdevi is an idiot, but they did just want to get Allen so that Cross would come back and remove the debt. The Exorcists were the ones who were like "fight us!".)

    Uh, if I had to choose... I'd probably sit down and cry? Yeah, it's easier and more important to kill 10 people, but... that's still pretty hard to do.

    Okay, random crack theory: Allen's Innocence is the reason that Tiki is like this now. There have been numerous mentions of Innocence and Dark Matter being in direct opposition, so maybe the super-Noah-ness is the result of his cutting and slashing and all? If we still want Allen to be a Noah, then that's kind of the perfect result... enhancing power. xD

    Also, Wiki says that Road exploded just like Boric did when he died. Anyone want to go look back and confirm that for me? If so, then she might be dead after all.
    ~Digital_Eon~




  5. #45
    ranteil is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    in chapeter 98 is where the scene is located digital. I personally think that Kanda just slashed him in half at the end, right before the floor collapsed. In prior chapters Kanda did do something simular to making him blow up, but that didn't kill him, instead it just tore him up a bit.

  6. #46
    Kolox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon View Post
    No, none of the Exorcists have actually directly used humans to achieve their goals, but the Noah haven't, either.
    Akuma ?

    Everyone was upset when Anita and Mahoja died because they had gotten to know them; Lavi even said "this is hard", when he realized that they were dying. He's been an Exorcist for two years, yet only NOW is upset about the akuma victims?
    I think that's not the case - Lavi for those two years tried to supress his feelings - and moreover, what other thing you can say ? "Who cares, there were 100000 of other people dying because of Akuma".

    They're desperate, but it just means that the Exorcists are forced into doing what they do; given the choice, would all of them have joined the Order and save the world?
    Yeah, probably - it's better to prove yourself usefull and join some group which guarantees some kind of protection and help than being an outcast for both human and Noah.

    I can understand humans hating Noah too, but the Noah are also human. People like Chaoji are just ordinary, corrupted humans... like everyone else in the story. Even if they are making it difficult for others to survive, do THEY have a choice in it?
    Well, there is actually difference the level of "humanity" and not of being human as species. Let's just say that in human point of view (which is quite understandable and can't be denied) Noah selfishly decided to destroy their own species - for their own benefits. Something like Hitler trying to kill all non-Germans for sake of Germans..

    Road spoke of Rinari as a doll, and did not even indicate that she would die - at ANY point in the manga. Considering that she's supposed to kill and WANT to kill an Exorcist, that's a bit unusual.
    Road doesn't believe in the idea she could lost - so there no reason to speed things up.

    Jasdevi is an idiot, but they did just want to get Allen so that Cross would come back and remove the debt. The Exorcists were the ones who were like "fight us!".)
    Because it's Exorcists who barged to arc on their own will and they wanted to do that suicidal mission - Exorcist where threatened that they will be killed if they won't leave the arc, whatever personal issues Jasdevi has aren't important, since he was planning on killing them by stopping them from advancing (and it's not those are Allen's debts nor Lavi, Rinali or Crowley should get involved with that).

    Uh, if I had to choose... I'd probably sit down and cry? Yeah, it's easier and more important to kill 10 people, but... that's still pretty hard to do.
    Hence the FSN reference - Archer did choose to kill those people and then sat down and cried

    Okay, random crack theory: Allen's Innocence is the reason that Tiki is like this now. There have been numerous mentions of Innocence and Dark Matter being in direct opposition, so maybe the super-Noah-ness is the result of his cutting and slashing and all? If we still want Allen to be a Noah, then that's kind of the perfect result... enhancing power. xD
    I would say Allen just didn't performed it correctly, since it was his first time doing it - he removed dark matter from the body, but did not destroy it.

    Also, Wiki says that Road exploded just like Boric did when he died. Anyone want to go look back and confirm that for me? If so, then she might be dead after all.
    ..or Boric is alive !!

  7. #47
    ranteil is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolox View Post

    ..or Boric is alive !!
    Okay, I put an idea out there a while ago Kolox, that like a computer, when the "ark" gets deleted, it mearly frees up the space it occupies (the data is still there), and things might be taken elsehwere. People shot this down right away, but I think I'm on to something here. Most examples are the fact that Miranda can't feel them anymore, so they are dead. At first I was in that camp too, but like I said, I think not (I can see this manga going that way).
    However going into this is severly off topic, so instead how about this:

    Hay, Digital, do you remember when we talked about the dreams (Exorcists aren't human thread)? I'm starting to think that this might be the dream that they both had. Light knows that there is deffinatly enough destruction around here.

    One more thing, thinking on it, doesnt' the arks layout look a lot like that one town the General drew? I'm feeling lazy right now, so feel free to comment at will.

  8. #48
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolox View Post
    Akuma ?
    The Earl isn't the Noah.

    I think that's not the case - Lavi for those two years tried to supress his feelings - and moreover, what other thing you can say ? "Who cares, there were 100000 of other people dying because of Akuma".
    Yeah, the feelings of his FRIENDS dying. There's no evidence that showed he, or anyone else, cared about humans dying in the battle unless they were his friends. Anita and Mahoja were innocent humans, not Exorcists.

    At least Allen feels bad for the dead people. >_>

    Yeah, probably - it's better to prove yourself usefull and join some group which guarantees some kind of protection and help than being an outcast for both human and Noah.
    Really? Assuming they didn't have Innocence, you mean? Rinari didn't NEED Innocence, for instance. She could have had a normal life had she not been kidnapped (well, with just her brother, but still).

    Well, there is actually difference the level of "humanity" and not of being human as species. Let's just say that in human point of view (which is quite understandable and can't be denied) Noah selfishly decided to destroy their own species - for their own benefits. Something like Hitler trying to kill all non-Germans for sake of Germans..
    Well, not really... they're not really in the same position, since the Noah are a very tiny group of people. They'd be comparable to the people of the country who were manipulated, not the leaders themselves (that's the Earl).

    Road doesn't believe in the idea she could lost - so there no reason to speed things up.
    She also saved them from Death by Tiki.

    Because it's Exorcists who barged to arc on their own will and they wanted to do that suicidal mission - Exorcist where threatened that they will be killed if they won't leave the arc, whatever personal issues Jasdevi has aren't important, since he was planning on killing them by stopping them from advancing (and it's not those are Allen's debts nor Lavi, Rinali or Crowley should get involved with that).
    The Earl pulled them in; the Exorcists didn't have a choice. I don't think Jasdevi was ordered to go there, either; Tiki and Road implied that by creating doors, they were acting against what the Earl wanted. Otherwise, the Exorcists would have just died where they were when the Ark was deleted. Road actually sent Jasdevi to the Ark to meet Allen - check the chapters after Boric dies. They're whining about how Cross gave them their debt, Road looks at the notes, and says she has something "interesting" to tell them - that his student, Allen, is in the Ark (we presume).

    Hence the FSN reference - Archer did choose to kill those people and then sat down and cried
    Archer is a- hey, I never said I'd KILL them. I'd sit down and cry until everyone was saved.

    I would say Allen just didn't performed it correctly, since it was his first time doing it - he removed dark matter from the body, but did not destroy it.
    There's an equal chance that he has no idea what his Innocence was doing, though. Besides, no one else has screwed up the first time THEY used their Innocence.

    ..or Boric is alive !!
    Definitely not; Road confirmed that, and all the Noah were crying.

    Quote Originally Posted by ranteil
    Okay, I put an idea out there a while ago Kolox, that like a computer, when the "ark" gets deleted, it mearly frees up the space it occupies (the data is still there), and things might be taken elsehwere. People shot this down right away, but I think I'm on to something here. Most examples are the fact that Miranda can't feel them anymore, so they are dead. At first I was in that camp too, but like I said, I think not (I can see this manga going that way).
    However going into this is severly off topic, so instead how about this:
    No, that seems to be correct - I misread the chapters, but apparently the Ark gets stuck in between dimensions and dumps the occupants there or whatever. On the other hand, the Earl seemed pretty sure of their death, so maybe the deletion does cause them to die anyway. It's hard to say.

    Hay, Digital, do you remember when we talked about the dreams (Exorcists aren't human thread)? I'm starting to think that this might be the dream that they both had. Light knows that there is deffinatly enough destruction around here.

    One more thing, thinking on it, doesnt' the arks layout look a lot like that one town the General drew? I'm feeling lazy right now, so feel free to comment at will.
    I still think the dream was when Allen died, because that would explain his uniform. Allen was definitely seeing Rinari crying over him, which was happening right at that moment. Also, this scenery isn't the HQ, which is apparently what Rinari saw.

    Tiedoll's town? (Where did he draw that?) I don't know if that means anything; the Ark was apparently open to humans for a few years (we saw Allen wandering through it, and Cross probably has something to do with the Ark), so maybe Tiedoll visited or whatever.
    ~Digital_Eon~




  9. #49
    Kolox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon View Post
    The Earl isn't the Noah.
    The main point is - Noah are with Earl - whatever Earl do, Noah approves it and takes the same responsibility - being a partner in murdering makes you a murderer too. Moreover, Road proved that Noah can control Akuma's.

    Yeah, the feelings of his FRIENDS dying. There's no evidence that showed he, or anyone else, cared about humans dying in the battle unless they were his friends. Anita and Mahoja were innocent humans, not Exorcists.

    At least Allen feels bad for the dead people. >_>
    When the people from world trade center towers died because of the plane crash (terrorist attack), I felt bad about those people... but I wasn't really sad, I just thought it was wrong and I don't want to happen to anyone - and I was angry at the people who made this suicidal plan - you need to understand that we don't always go emo when we hear that people die, but it's not like we ignoring it.

    Really? Assuming they didn't have Innocence, you mean? Rinari didn't NEED Innocence, for instance. She could have had a normal life had she not been kidnapped (well, with just her brother, but still).
    Actually, yes - since Earl would try to kill them, they would prefer to find some place where they could feel just a little 'safe'.

    Well, not really... they're not really in the same position, since the Noah are a very tiny group of people. They'd be comparable to the people of the country who were manipulated, not the leaders themselves (that's the Earl).
    If we consider Earl as a leader and Noah as people who were persuaded and agreed with Earl ideology, that doesn't make much difference. Killers are still killers.

    She also saved them from Death by Tiki.
    Never felt that way - no more comment about it.

    The Earl pulled them in; the Exorcists didn't have a choice. I don't think Jasdevi was ordered to go there, either; Tiki and Road implied that by creating doors, they were acting against what the Earl wanted. Otherwise, the Exorcists would have just died where they were when the Ark was deleted. Road actually sent Jasdevi to the Ark to meet Allen - check the chapters after Boric dies. They're whining about how Cross gave them their debt, Road looks at the notes, and says she has something "interesting" to tell them - that his student, Allen, is in the Ark (we presume).
    ....so it's more like Noah came to pick a fight with Exorcist, upon knowing their location and the fact that they have advantage over them ? That does not make them innocent.

    There's an equal chance that he has no idea what his Innocence was doing, though. Besides, no one else has screwed up the first time THEY used their Innocence.
    Rinali screwed - she over did it and now she has stupid swirls on her leg

    Definitely not; Road confirmed that, and all the Noah were crying.
    It was a jest

  10. #50
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolox View Post
    The main point is - Noah are with Earl - whatever Earl do, Noah approves it and takes the same responsibility - being a partner in murdering makes you a murderer too. Moreover, Road proved that Noah can control Akuma's.
    The Noah can't disapprove of it; they can't do anything. That's like saying that Rinari is responsible for that boy who became a togaochi, and Rabi was responsible for Rinari's kidnapping. How could the Noah do anything about what the Earl is doing? Also, sure, they can control akuma... what does that have to do with them using humans? The akuma are dead souls that aren't human anymore, and they're already akuma. Better to control than be killed, right? (Road also made one of them die...)

    When the people from world trade center towers died because of the plane crash (terrorist attack), I felt bad about those people... but I wasn't really sad, I just thought it was wrong and I don't want to happen to anyone - and I was angry at the people who made this suicidal plan - you need to understand that we don't always go emo when we hear that people die, but it's not like we ignoring it.
    Because we didn't know them; they aren't our friends. And anyway, this is what the Noah HAVE to do. Tiki probably wouldn't have gone around killing Exorcists if the Earl hadn't told him to (he may have enjoyed it, but he hasn't dedicated his life to it). In the same way, the Order has caused the deaths of hundreds of people who work for it. Look at the hundred-plus coffins in volume 6.

    Actually, yes - since Earl would try to kill them, they would prefer to find some place where they could feel just a little 'safe'.
    Why would the Earl have gone after Rinari specifically if she wasn't an Exorcist?

    If we consider Earl as a leader and Noah as people who were persuaded and agreed with Earl ideology, that doesn't make much difference. Killers are still killers.
    Which means that all the armies who fought in wars no matter for what cause or where - those soldiers are killers? I mean, they are, but we don't look at them in the same way as general murderers of innocent people. (You've talked about the akuma being human souls - does that make the Exorcists murders? ^_~)

    Never felt that way - no more comment about it.
    What?

    ....so it's more like Noah came to pick a fight with Exorcist, upon knowing their location and the fact that they have advantage over them ? That does not make them innocent.
    Jasdevi is STUPID. They were whining about the debts and Road told them to go find Allen in the Ark. I don't think they wanted to fight; they just wanted to use him to get to Cross, or get him to pay since it's his fault.

    Rinali screwed - she over did it and now she has stupid swirls on her leg
    She did that on purpose (Allen did the same thing, earlier). I mean, no one has messed up their power because they didn't know about it. Rinari knew what the consequences were, and actually thought she was going to DIE.

    It was a jest
    Oh, I see... well forgive me for being dumb! >_>;;
    ~Digital_Eon~




 

 
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