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  1. #21
    Purple Filth is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    Unfortunately that idea is just as bad as him stopping him self.

    So i will rather go with him stopping him self since its actually his problem that he needs to solve so i wouldn't mind his involvement.

    Rather than he "comes back to life later" and his now "normal".


    2 evils basically but lets see which one the Author picks (1, 2, a combination of both or none at all)

  2. #22
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reinard-fox View Post
    You misunderstood me. Yes it is her duty, but is it also a reason that she fights for right now? NO.
    Okay, I probably did... but we don't really know what Road is fighting for. It's possible (although unlikely, as I tend to make bad guesses) that, faced with the destruction of her friends, retaliated in order to make her a better Noah. Like what Rabi is doing now. (Cause pain and suffering to Allen, Allen hates you, no more liking Allen, or something along those lines).

    You just answered to your question in Arc discussion thread - because Road is CRUEL and this haven't changed. She is hurting both Allen and Rabi, but not phisically - emotionally.
    I'm not denying that. I'm just speculating that she knows how much that kind of thing hurts, which is why she's choosing to exploit those specific weaknesses.

    Maybe.
    We really know nothing about Road.

    It amkes zero sense - killing character who just had character development. Why bother giving him this development if he is about to get killed?
    For later? For the reader's entertainment? Because then the killing is a surprise? I don't know... but Crowley and Anita both had some character development and look where they are now.

    Dies, then revives....I don't like this scenario.
    I like it better than "Oh no! I'm killing my friends! I must struggle and overcome the bonds of my duty and conscience!" kind of thing.

    1) He will most likely save himself. Yes it's overused. But if Allen saves him it will be typical too. For character development you can sacrifice originality once, it won't hurt that much.
    2) Allen doesn't need character development now, he just got power up.
    3) He is stabbed in his dream so it doesn't matter. Him being stabbed is just a symbol of a Comradish part of his soul loosing to Bookmanish part, nothing more.
    I doubt Allen's going to save Rabi. He'll either kill him, get killed, or do absolutely nothing.

    ...Allen needs personality development; he left his back at the Asia branch.

    Things in the dream look pretty literal. Mind-Rabi being stabbed means that his heart died, so I guess that Rabi was his heart, and he died.

    It doesn't matter if he knows what is going on outside. He just have to win his inner battle to take control of his body again and win against Road as well.
    Assuming he can win that battle. His mental self is badly wounded if alive at all, and he does kind of need a reason to fight. The Evil Rabi isn't who killed him, after all. If Rabi was going to fight him, wouldn't he have done so before? Previously, the other Rabi just stood around and talked to him... no attacking or anything. Sure, he was provoked with words, but they were the truth. It'd take some major plot-wrecking to come up with a reason for Rabi to attack his alternate self.

    Please, no reviving characters! I'm afraid that Crowley and Kanda will return at some poitn, but if there would be THREE of them.....
    Once you bring two back, one more won't add to the cheesiness of it. =P Besides, I said that I preferred that to Rabi saving himself. Anyway, bringing people back could mean some kind of cool power - like, um, Rinari not being worthless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Filth
    Unfortunately that idea is just as bad as him stopping him self.

    So i will rather go with him stopping him self since its actually his problem that he needs to solve so i wouldn't mind his involvement.

    Rather than he "comes back to life later" and his now "normal".


    2 evils basically but lets see which one the Author picks (1, 2, a combination of both or none at all)
    I'd rather that he doesn't stop himself, for reasons mentioned above. Besides, maybe he won't be normal if he gets back. He could be more distant and people could wonder what's up with him, or something.
    ~Digital_Eon~




  3. #23
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon View Post
    Okay, I probably did... but we don't really know what Road is fighting for. It's possible (although unlikely, as I tend to make bad guesses) that, faced with the destruction of her friends, retaliated in order to make her a better Noah. Like what Rabi is doing now. (Cause pain and suffering to Allen, Allen hates you, no more liking Allen, or something along those lines).
    Road said that, although she likes Allen, her family is special. Thats what she is fighting for. Also she said that she will take the life of thier friend because they killed her family member.

    I'm not denying that. I'm just speculating that she knows how much that kind of thing hurts, which is why she's choosing to exploit those specific weaknesses.
    Exactly.

    For later? For the reader's entertainment? Because then the killing is a surprise?
    Most people do not read manga deeply - this especially goes for shounen (just read Naruto subforum - an ultimate prove for my words). So it won't be surprise for them if character dies after getting development - since they just won't understand that development just happened. It won't surprise anyone. Also, Hoshino is not KJ, and does not make his manga a field for experimants, at least this far.
    I don't know... but Crowley and Anita both had some character development and look where they are now.
    I don't remember Croley getting that much of development actually. But it may be that I have forgotten something. Can you remind me please?

    I doubt Allen's going to save Rabi. He'll either kill him, get killed, or do absolutely nothing.
    I would prefer the third one. For development Rabi needs to overcome hardships himself.

    ...Allen needs personality development; he left his back at the Asia branch.
    What he left back is his childness. Which is not a surprise, looking at how he suffered back then. His main rule "I will protect both human and Akuma" which was stated in like first chapter is still with him - and it helped him to overcome Tiki. He got his development - he is not a child anymore. Now it is Rabi's turn.

    Things in the dream look pretty literal. Mind-Rabi being stabbed means that his heart died, so I guess that Rabi was his heart, and he died.
    Well, absolutely not. Is huge chess field a normal thing? Or the river of coffins with zombies? No. His dream consists of metáfors, and the death of his heart is one of them - his heart represents his emotions, his aspiration to have friends, to fight with them. And this is currently dead, pushed to the shadows, making it possible for his bookmanish side take control over body and attack Allen.

    Assuming he can win that battle. His mental self is badly wounded if alive at all, and he does kind of need a reason to fight. The Evil Rabi isn't who killed him, after all. If Rabi was going to fight him, wouldn't he have done so before? Previously, the other Rabi just stood around and talked to him... no attacking or anything. Sure, he was provoked with words, but they were the truth. It'd take some major plot-wrecking to come up with a reason for Rabi to attack his alternate self.
    Nothing plot-wrecking is needed. Rabi just has to realise who he should fight - if before he was fighting shadows of his friends, now he should fight his other self. He never attacked his other self because he never understood who he should fight. The moment he turns his wrath against his evil self is the moment he gets development. Also - the Great Law of shounen (that worked in DGM so far) - if you get mental power up you can forget about all previous wounds as if they never existed - will help him get up and fight.

    Once you bring two back, one more won't add to the cheesiness of it. =P Besides, I said that I preferred that to Rabi saving himself. Anyway, bringing people back could mean some kind of cool power - like, um, Rinari not being worthless?
    I was talking about bringing people back using Plot-hole-no-jutsu, like Kishimoto always does. Not some new kind of innocence.
    I'd rather that he doesn't stop himself, for reasons mentioned above. Besides, maybe he won't be normal if he gets back. He could be more distant and people could wonder what's up with him, or something.
    Why would he be more distant? He has no reason to, he have chosen his friends over his duty, haven't he?

  4. #24
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reinard-fox View Post
    Road said that, although she likes Allen, her family is special. Thats what she is fighting for. Also she said that she will take the life of thier friend because they killed her family member.
    She says. But then, why have Rabi attack Allen instead of just killing Rabi on her own?

    Most people do not read manga deeply - this especially goes for shounen (just read Naruto subforum - an ultimate prove for my words). So it won't be surprise for them if character dies after getting development - since they just won't understand that development just happened. It won't surprise anyone. Also, Hoshino is not KJ, and does not make his manga a field for experimants, at least this far.
    And maybe that's the purpose? The death will be a surprise because this is a main character, and that kind of thing doesn't happen very often in manga. Anyway, this is Hoshino-sensei's first long manga. The change in plot and art style should show that she is kind of experimenting in her own way.

    I don't remember Croley getting that much of development actually. But it may be that I have forgotten something. Can you remind me please?
    Well, not as much as Rabi, but he had some flashbacks with Eliade and the group, and there was all that talk about being a monster. It was more than Kanda just getting powerful and kicking Boric's ass.

    I would prefer the third one. For development Rabi needs to overcome hardships himself.
    Which would mean that he really doesn't need his friends after all...

    What he left back is his childness. Which is not a surprise, looking at how he suffered back then. His main rule "I will protect both human and Akuma" which was stated in like first chapter is still with him - and it helped him to overcome Tiki. He got his development - he is not a child anymore. Now it is Rabi's turn.
    True. I still don't know what happened to his actual personality, though - almost all of his lines and actions (except for the protecting/saving parts) could be said by anyone else and fit. There's nothing that defines ALLEN anymore besides having strong powers.

    Well, absolutely not. Is huge chess field a normal thing? Or the river of coffins with zombies? No. His dream consists of metáfors, and the death of his heart is one of them - his heart represents his emotions, his aspiration to have friends, to fight with them. And this is currently dead, pushed to the shadows, making it possible for his bookmanish side take control over body and attack Allen.
    They're metaphors, but they're real to him. Rabi's heart "died". If he was really supposed to be able to overcome it, wouldn't a more appropriate metaphor be to have it trapped somewhere, or wounded badly, or struggling? No, he got stabbed and died. Also, this is still a manifestation of Road's powers. I wouldn't be surprised if things really were literal, in a sense. The zombies were a metaphor, but THEY WERE THERE. They were directly affecting his struggle.

    Nothing plot-wrecking is needed. Rabi just has to realise who he should fight - if before he was fighting shadows of his friends, now he should fight his other self. He never attacked his other self because he never understood who he should fight. The moment he turns his wrath against his evil self is the moment he gets development. Also - the Great Law of shounen (that worked in DGM so far) - if you get mental power up you can forget about all previous wounds as if they never existed - will help him get up and fight.
    How is he supposed to decide who he fights, now? He fought the zombies because they were attacking him, but there's no reason for him to fight his other self. Since he doesn't see the effect that this is having on others, he can't think that he needs to protect everyone. Attacking his evil self for the provocative comments would just be an expression of irrationality, and that hasn't been a part of Rabi's character. He is upset that he isn't supposed to have friends and that he needs to be neutral, but he understands the reasoning behind it. For him to abandon that would be a rejection of Rabi's character itself.

    I was talking about bringing people back using Plot-hole-no-jutsu, like Kishimoto always does. Not some new kind of innocence.
    Oh. Well, D.Gray-Man has some major plot hole problems already...

    Why would he be more distant? He has no reason to, he have chosen his friends over his duty, haven't he?
    Unless he didn't manage to fight himself and realized that he does have to separate himself from his friends, and can do so now... who knows.
    ~Digital_Eon~




  5. #25
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon View Post
    She says. But then, why have Rabi attack Allen instead of just killing Rabi on her own?
    Becasue she wants both Rabi and Allen to suffer.

    And maybe that's the purpose? The death will be a surprise because this is a main character, and that kind of thing doesn't happen very often in manga. Anyway, this is Hoshino-sensei's first long manga. The change in plot and art style should show that she is kind of experimenting in her own way.
    Rabi is not that much of a main character, not more then Crowley.

    Well, not as much as Rabi, but he had some flashbacks with Eliade and the group, and there was all that talk about being a monster. It was more than Kanda just getting powerful and kicking Boric's ass.
    So you are saying that Crowleys development was in him getting over this "I killed the one i loved (Eliade)" thing? It hasn't gone anywhere, looking at how Eliad was the one that triggered his last power up in a fight with Jasdevi.

    Rabi didn't have character development up until now - and this whole conflict between his bokman side and frendly side began long ago - at the ship Bookman prevented him from helping Lenalee saying that they should remain observers.
    Which would mean that he really doesn't need his friends after all...
    The entire philosophy of Allen => DGM is about saving your friends, not about being saved by them. If you were right, then the one who doesn't need friends is Allen - friends are just burden to him since he have to waste power protecting them.
    True. I still don't know what happened to his actual personality, though - almost all of his lines and actions (except for the protecting/saving parts) could be said by anyone else and fit. There's nothing that defines ALLEN anymore besides having strong powers.
    His actual personality consists:
    1) Special power - it is still there.
    2) "I will save both human and Akuma" - still there.
    3) Jokes about food, cards and stuff - still there.
    4) Linalee~~~~ - still there.
    5) Friends - still there.

    What exactly he left in China that made him into different character?

    They're metaphors, but they're real to him. Rabi's heart "died". If he was really supposed to be able to overcome it, wouldn't a more appropriate metaphor be to have it trapped somewhere, or wounded badly, or struggling? No, he got stabbed and died. Also, this is still a manifestation of Road's powers. I wouldn't be surprised if things really were literal, in a sense. The zombies were a metaphor, but THEY WERE THERE. They were directly affecting his struggle.
    They were illusions, not real. Being illusions doesn't prevent from directly effecting struggle, does it? Also, how do you know that soul died, and is not just wounded badly?

    How is he supposed to decide who he fights, now? He fought the zombies because they were attacking him, but there's no reason for him to fight his other self. Since he doesn't see the effect that this is having on others, he can't think that he needs to protect everyone. Attacking his evil self for the provocative comments would just be an expression of irrationality, and that hasn't been a part of Rabi's character. He is upset that he isn't supposed to have friends and that he needs to be neutral, but he understands the reasoning behind it. For him to abandon that would be a rejection of Rabi's character itself.
    Firstly, he doesn't need to protect everyone. He is not Allen, it's not his goal. Secondly, to start fighting his bookmanish side he just should decide that his friends are more important then job. This itself would be an attack. Thirdly, he can't be neutral anymore, since Road directly attacked this weak point of his - he always wanted to have friends, while his job interferd, thus leading to a conflict, which Road triggered. And of course, it wouldn't be rejection of his charatcer itself, it would be rejection of Bookman. Which is a different thing.

    Oh. Well, D.Gray-Man has some major plot hole problems already...
    ?????

  6. #26
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reinard-fox View Post
    Becasue she wants both Rabi and Allen to suffer.
    Doesn't change the fact that she likes Allen yet seems about as conflicted as evil Rabi.

    Rabi is not that much of a main character, not more then Crowley.
    He's been around for a longer period of time and actually had his own manga cover...? =P

    So you are saying that Crowleys development was in him getting over this "I killed the one i loved (Eliade)" thing? It hasn't gone anywhere, looking at how Eliad was the one that triggered his last power up in a fight with Jasdevi.

    Rabi didn't have character development up until now - and this whole conflict between his bokman side and frendly side began long ago - at the ship Bookman prevented him from helping Lenalee saying that they should remain observers.
    It was major development for Crowley, since he'd been emo and whatnot for the rest of the manga. It's as much as it is for Rabi - what really changed in Rabi? As you mentioned, he's been facing that conflict for chapters. This isn't a new concept, and he hasn't changed at all since Road took over his mind except to grow weaker. There's an opportunity for development, but we won't know until next week whether or not that's taken.

    The entire philosophy of Allen => DGM is about saving your friends, not about being saved by them. If you were right, then the one who doesn't need friends is Allen - friends are just burden to him since he have to waste power protecting them.
    That's true; it is about protecting friends. However, they still accept that friends are important. Rabi is in the opposite situation; he needs to prove to himself that his friends ARE important and necessary to him, since he's not supposed to have them. If he requires their aid to escape, he'd be able to fight back against that evil side. (Okay, but that would mean the evil side is defeated, but... ignore that logic). Basically, if Rabi escapes on his own, it wouldn't prove that he does need his friends, and that conflict would never be resolved.

    His actual personality consists:
    1) Special power - it is still there.
    2) "I will save both human and Akuma" - still there.
    3) Jokes about food, cards and stuff - still there.
    4) Linalee~~~~ - still there.
    5) Friends - still there.

    What exactly he left in China that made him into different character?
    I meant that he hasn't shown much of his personality since China.

    Yes, those basic ideas are still there, but as I said, everything he says and does (with the exception of the superpower-Tiki-exorcising) could have been done by any other character and it would have fit with the story. Rabi could have saved Rinari from falling, Kanda could have fought Jasdevi with Crowley and run away (if he wasn't dead), and he hasn't said anything really important or interesting, either.

    Even when he does show his concern about friends, it seems... hollow, somehow. Things improved this chapter, but prior to that there wasn't any real concern over them except for occasional moments that seemed randomly inserted. The humour is the same way. It's less of his personality than a moment to show that he's still Allen, and it doesn't really work out because it doesn't fit with the flow of the story.

    Oh, and a big part of his personality is also getting lost. =P

    They were illusions, not real. Being illusions doesn't prevent from directly effecting struggle, does it? Also, how do you know that soul died, and is not just wounded badly?
    They're illusions, which means that they're not really his friends and they're not dead. They're still physical beings that can cause pain to his mind, if not his body, which is in another world.

    Road said his heart "died".

    Firstly, he doesn't need to protect everyone. He is not Allen, it's not his goal. Secondly, to start fighting his bookmanish side he just should decide that his friends are more important then job. This itself would be an attack. Thirdly, he can't be neutral anymore, since Road directly attacked this weak point of his - he always wanted to have friends, while his job interferd, thus leading to a conflict, which Road triggered. And of course, it wouldn't be rejection of his charatcer itself, it would be rejection of Bookman. Which is a different thing.
    1) Everyone's goal is to fight and protect... okay, Allen and Rinari anyway.
    2) He doesn't WANT his friends to be more important. The reason this conflict existed is because he isn't supposed to care for his friends so much. If he liked things that way, wouldn't he have protested to the other Rabi, or said something? Instead, he was just quiet. He was watching because he knew he was wrong.
    3) Exorcists expect to be attacked; Bookman must have known that. He can still remain in a neutral position, then, if he consciously chose to afterwards (from the perspective of history).
    4) Rabi is a Bookman. We haven't seen him be anything else.

    ?????
    Making a list of those - let me just say that there are some things that just don't add up in the story.
    ~Digital_Eon~




  7. #27
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon View Post
    Doesn't change the fact that she likes Allen yet seems about as conflicted as evil Rabi.
    Yeah it doesn't. Family for her is more important then Allen. Family, not duty. This things are different.
    He's been around for a longer period of time and actually had his own manga cover...? =P
    Kanda was around longer. Being at the cover - with this logic Nara, Yoshidayama and Nishimoto are main chracters of SR too since they were on cover once.

    It was major development for Crowley, since he'd been emo and whatnot for the rest of the manga. It's as much as it is for Rabi - what really changed in Rabi? As you mentioned, he's been facing that conflict for chapters. This isn't a new concept, and he hasn't changed at all since Road took over his mind except to grow weaker. There's an opportunity for development, but we won't know until next week whether or not that's taken.
    I don't see how Crowley changed after Eliade's appearence in battle aside from power up which can't be taken as character development.

    Rabi is changeing NOW. What makes it character development is that it is NOT a new concept, it's an old one, which was burdening him since long ago and now it is being solved. Solving inner problems of characters = character development.

    That's true; it is about protecting friends. However, they still accept that friends are important. Rabi is in the opposite situation; he needs to prove to himself that his friends ARE important and necessary to him, since he's not supposed to have them. If he requires their aid to escape, he'd be able to fight back against that evil side. (Okay, but that would mean the evil side is defeated, but... ignore that logic). Basically, if Rabi escapes on his own, it wouldn't prove that he does need his friends, and that conflict would never be resolved.
    Characters develop when they solve thier conflict by themselves; if he will be helped he won't need to make crutial decision between his friends and job and everything will remain as it was without development. Just like you said - prove to himself. Besides, it's not that he needs them - he wants them. It's different.
    I meant that he hasn't shown much of his personality since China.

    Yes, those basic ideas are still there, but as I said, everything he says and does (with the exception of the superpower-Tiki-exorcising) could have been done by any other character and it would have fit with the story. Rabi could have saved Rinari from falling, Kanda could have fought Jasdevi with Crowley and run away (if he wasn't dead), and he hasn't said anything really important or interesting, either.

    Even when he does show his concern about friends, it seems... hollow, somehow. Things improved this chapter, but prior to that there wasn't any real concern over them except for occasional moments that seemed randomly inserted. The humour is the same way. It's less of his personality than a moment to show that he's still Allen, and it doesn't really work out because it doesn't fit with the flow of the story.
    You just pointed out the reasons that allows me to say that character design in DGM is pretty bad. What makes Allen main character is that he is 1) the strongest; 2) appeared first. He doesn't even have inner problems that can be solved! If Rabi or Kanda were to be the first to appear the would be able to play the main char's role without any problems and story wouldn't suffer any changes. Bleach is not Bleach without Ichigo; SR is not SR without Harima; DGM is fine without Allen.

    Although this whole quetion is for a new thread....

    Oh, and a big part of his personality is also getting lost. =P
    Which one?

    They're illusions, which means that they're not really his friends and they're not dead. They're still physical beings that can cause pain to his mind, if not his body, which is in another world.

    Road said his heart "died".
    Indeed. They couse pain. Mental pain. His body is not suffering, judging from facial expression, its OK. The fact that they are cousing mental pain doesn't contradict my general statement, does it? And I belive I have explained what the phrase "his heart died" mean before.

    1) Everyone's goal is to fight and protect... okay, Allen and Rinari anyway.
    2) He doesn't WANT his friends to be more important. The reason this conflict existed is because he isn't supposed to care for his friends so much. If he liked things that way, wouldn't he have protested to the other Rabi, or said something? Instead, he was just quiet. He was watching because he knew he was wrong.
    3) Exorcists expect to be attacked; Bookman must have known that. He can still remain in a neutral position, then, if he consciously chose to afterwards (from the perspective of history).
    4) Rabi is a Bookman. We haven't seen him be anything else.
    1) Allen, Crowley, Lenalee's. Rabi never stated that he wated to protect everyone. It is not his goal.
    2) Key wors are "is not supposed to". He want them to be important, but it contradicts Bookmans philosophy. He is not attacking because he can't decide who is his true enemy. Once he decides he will fight for this WANT against that IS NOT SUPPOSED. And that will be character development.
    3) Bookman was fighting in the ship defending themselves. He prevented Rabi from helping Lenalee. Thus remeining in nutral position.
    4) The point of charater development is to change that from "bookman" to "human with heart".

  8. #28
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reinard-fox View Post
    Yeah it doesn't. Family for her is more important then Allen. Family, not duty. This things are different.
    She's a Noah, so her family is her duty... now I'm getting confused.

    Kanda was around longer. Being at the cover - with this logic Nara, Yoshidayama and Nishimoto are main chracters of SR too since they were on cover once.
    School Rumble is LONG. D.Gray-Man doesn't have many covers... but he played a fairly major role in every arc he was in since appearing. Unlike Crowley, he was active on the boat when it sank, and has been running around doing things like finding Allen along with definite main characters.

    I don't see how Crowley changed after Eliade's appearence in battle aside from power up which can't be taken as character development.

    Rabi is changeing NOW. What makes it character development is that it is NOT a new concept, it's an old one, which was burdening him since long ago and now it is being solved. Solving inner problems of characters = character development.
    ...Well, he wanted the power up... He also had to realize that his friends were important people, since he, like Miranda, lived a very lonely life.

    Rabi isn't changing as far as we've seen. This is the critical moment - will he change, or won't he? So far, the problem has only increased in magnitude; Rabi's reaction to it really hasn't changed. If we were to take his personality as it is now, he'd probably be a little more emo but overall the exact same as he was before Road attacked him. There's a chance that he won't change as a result of this event.

    Characters develop when they solve thier conflict by themselves; if he will be helped he won't need to make crutial decision between his friends and job and everything will remain as it was without development. Just like you said - prove to himself. Besides, it's not that he needs them - he wants them. It's different.
    If he dies, he doesn't need to make that decision either... and if he escapes with their help, he DOES need them. If he escapes on his own, he'd have to somehow decide that his friends are important and fight - but that won't entirely resolve the problem. He'd just prove that he's okay on his own, as he was before, and I'm sure that would be in his mind in future chapters.

    You just pointed out the reasons that allows me to say that character design in DGM is pretty bad. What makes Allen main character is that he is 1) the strongest; 2) appeared first. He doesn't even have inner problems that can be solved! If Rabi or Kanda were to be the first to appear the would be able to play the main char's role without any problems and story wouldn't suffer any changes. Bleach is not Bleach without Ichigo; SR is not SR without Harima; DGM is fine without Allen.

    Although this whole quetion is for a new thread....
    Character design is pretty bad, I admit. I liked Allen as the main character because it was interesting that he was just some normal person without real problems. He's just another person fighting in the Order. That's what made it different from shounen manga, and allowed other characters to be nearly as important (and it worked well, for D.Gray-Man). Now that he's had all these power-ups and a reason for fighting, there's a big gap between him and everyone else. He's the only one who's been moving forward while everyone else stays on the same level - even a character like Rabi. Rabi's thoughts would have worked in previous chapters, I think, but not anymore.

    Which one?
    No, I mean - getting lost. Allen has a bad sense of direction. ^^;; This was mentioned numerous times in the past, but it hasn't been stated or even joked about (and I'm sure there could have been some way...).

    Indeed. They couse pain. Mental pain. His body is not suffering, judging from facial expression, its OK. The fact that they are cousing mental pain doesn't contradict my general statement, does it? And I belive I have explained what the phrase "his heart died" mean before.
    But it isn't the pain that he'd get from thinking bad things, it's irrational pain. It's physical pain in the sense that it won't be resolved by him thinking something else, because he can't. I don't know if D.Gray-Man uses the concept of a soul, but if they do, it'd like wounding the soul. And just because something wounds the body doesn't mean it isn't real and has real effects on the person physically - Allen's sword passes straight through everyone, but destroyed the Noah in Tiki.

    Doesn't the fact that his heart died mean exactly what it sounds like? A part of Rabi died?

    1) Allen, Crowley, Lenalee's. Rabi never stated that he wated to protect everyone. It is not his goal.
    2) Key wors are "is not supposed to". He want them to be important, but it contradicts Bookmans philosophy. He is not attacking because he can't decide who is his true enemy. Once he decides he will fight for this WANT against that IS NOT SUPPOSED. And that will be character development.
    3) Bookman was fighting in the ship defending themselves. He prevented Rabi from helping Lenalee. Thus remeining in nutral position.
    4) The point of charater development is to change that from "bookman" to "human with heart".
    1) No, he didn't. Makes me wonder why Allen would talk about them both wanting to protect Rinari, then.
    2) But he doesn't want to care for them either. He WANTS to be an unattached Bookman. If he decides to do what he wants, then he faces another conflict right there.
    3) Just as Rabi doesn't have to attack Road or help anyone. Road may have attacked him, but if he doesn't retaliate, he's neutral.
    4) The fact that he's always been a Bookman means that it would be total character rejection for him to care for his friends. He'd be rejecting everything we've seen of him - the Bookman that he was, who had fun with friends but was still kind of separate.

    ...You know, I blame this on Rinari, and there's a simple way to resolve this: she dates Allen and breaks Rabi's heart. After all, he was fine before he started to like her. :3 Regression!
    ~Digital_Eon~




  9. #29
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon View Post
    She's a Noah, so her family is her duty... now I'm getting confused.
    Her duty is to kill human and bring armagedon, not seek revenge for her family members.

    School Rumble is LONG. D.Gray-Man doesn't have many covers... but he played a fairly major role in every arc he was in since appearing. Unlike Crowley, he was active on the boat when it sank, and has been running around doing things like finding Allen along with definite main characters.
    OK, not Nishimoto - lets take Mikoto. Both Rabi and Mikoto serve as maincharhelpers. They can be eleminated, such things happen.

    ...Well, he wanted the power up... He also had to realize that his friends were important people, since he, like Miranda, lived a very lonely life.
    He realised that friends are important when he was "saved" by Allen and Rabi and made exorcist. It is still not crutial character development.

    Rabi isn't changing as far as we've seen. This is the critical moment - will he change, or won't he? So far, the problem has only increased in magnitude; Rabi's reaction to it really hasn't changed. If we were to take his personality as it is now, he'd probably be a little more emo but overall the exact same as he was before Road attacked him. There's a chance that he won't change as a result of this event.
    Hopefully note. Creating the situation for deveplopment and not using it.... I hope Hoshino-sensei is not that bad.

    If he dies, he doesn't need to make that decision either... and if he escapes with their help, he DOES need them. If he escapes on his own, he'd have to somehow decide that his friends are important and fight - but that won't entirely resolve the problem. He'd just prove that he's okay on his own, as he was before, and I'm sure that would be in his mind in future chapters.
    The thing is that he can escape ONLY if he chooses his friends over his job. He is not choosing between "I need to be with them" and "I do not need". This is between "I want to" and "Let them die".

    Character design is pretty bad, I admit. I liked Allen as the main character because it was interesting that he was just some normal person without real problems. He's just another person fighting in the Order. That's what made it different from shounen manga, and allowed other characters to be nearly as important (and it worked well, for D.Gray-Man). Now that he's had all these power-ups and a reason for fighting, there's a big gap between him and everyone else. He's the only one who's been moving forward while everyone else stays on the same level - even a character like Rabi. Rabi's thoughts would have worked in previous chapters, I think, but not anymore.
    Because of this gap other characters need o move forward too - through charatcer developments or power ups. Thats why i think Rabi needs to be developed.


    No, I mean - getting lost. Allen has a bad sense of direction. ^^;; This was mentioned numerous times in the past, but it hasn't been stated or even joked about (and I'm sure there could have been some way...).
    Sorry, i misunderstood

    But it isn't the pain that he'd get from thinking bad things, it's irrational pain. It's physical pain in the sense that it won't be resolved by him thinking something else, because he can't. I don't know if D.Gray-Man uses the concept of a soul, but if they do, it'd like wounding the soul. And just because something wounds the body doesn't mean it isn't real and has real effects on the person physically - Allen's sword passes straight through everyone, but destroyed the Noah in Tiki.
    Allen sword is different form Road's weapon. Road is making Rabi face his inner problems while Allen just destroys dark matter.

    Doesn't the fact that his heart died mean exactly what it sounds like? A part of Rabi died?
    His heart died = his body was taken over by bookman => his other part is currently loosing.

    1) No, he didn't. Makes me wonder why Allen would talk about them both wanting to protect Rinari, then.
    2) But he doesn't want to care for them either. He WANTS to be an unattached Bookman. If he decides to do what he wants, then he faces another conflict right there.
    3) Just as Rabi doesn't have to attack Road or help anyone. Road may have attacked him, but if he doesn't retaliate, he's neutral.
    4) The fact that he's always been a Bookman means that it would be total character rejection for him to care for his friends. He'd be rejecting everything we've seen of him - the Bookman that he was, who had fun with friends but was still kind of separate.
    1) Because Allen assumes that everyone want to peortect thier friends.
    2) Lets read chapter 219 once more. It begins with Bookman explaining Rabi his duties. How people are not important and should not be protected. That people are just lumps of ink. Later river of coffins appeares, then - Linalee. She starts to attack him with words - "Why are you abandoning us Rabi?! We are not just lumps of ink!!!!" starts to attack him. The other people attack him too. Rabi, trying to not listen, not look, trying to avoid confronting reality is fighting with them. (this scence shows how Rabi is trying to avoid his own feeling, acts against himself and suffers because of that). Then - flashback about how he got his friends that ends with the words "I soon came to the point where i didn't know whether my smiling face was lie or not". Note that during flashback and after it is finished Rabi continually screems "stop" - he is trying to refuse his own feelings. After the end of flashback Allen appeares and finds a card which represents hidden feeling of Rabi. Then Allen gets killed by Bookman - note Rabi's reaction "Noooo" here. Bookman destroys the card "you are not a bookman anymore" and Rabi gets pierced. During this chapters Rabi's inner war is shown - how he tried to avoid his feeling of love towards his friends, how he tried to refuse it, how he suffered because of that and how he got pierced because of that.
    3) In order to get out of arc and stay alife he needs to fight anyways.
    4) The story of his character and how he actually wasn't a total bookman is written in chapter 119.

    Now, what does he want? His heart wants to be with friends, no matter how Rabi tries to refuse it. The only way to victory ios to acept his own feelings.
    ...You know, I blame this on Rinari, and there's a simple way to resolve this: she dates Allen and breaks Rabi's heart. After all, he was fine before he started to like her. :3 Regression!
    I doubt it will ever happen...

  10. #30
    Purple Filth is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    Nice discussion going on here, so i'll keep lurking.

    And i agree that Rabi needs to deal with this.


    anyways continue
    Last edited by Purple Filth; 06-03-2007 at 01:59 PM.

 

 
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