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  1. #41
    shaman-king is offline Senior Member Well Known
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    Ara ara digital-dono, to be honest your statement doesnt make any sense("Allen did say that at the branch, but he also got confused since he explicitly thought that his purpose for living was to KILL Tiki. He then remembered that it wasn't the reason and corrected himself, but he obviously wasn't thinking of akuma until then.")
    and youre contradicting yourself. First you acknowledge that allen did declare his will to protect humanity and save the akuma at the asia branch , then at the end of the statement you say he wasnt thinking about the akuma until "then". Im assuming then is when he is fighting tyki. In the scan that i read when he goes through his reasons to live he says that he wants to defeat the noah, tyki mikk. Not kill them, the only time and or reason he said he was going to kill tyki was when he attacked a defenseless rinalee. Youre very confusing digital-dono, because in the 115 discussion thread youre talking about how much of an anti hero allen is, but this cant be the case because all the points you made in that post cant be misproven because of a single chapter? The only thing i want to clear up is the fact that allen doesnt want to kill the noah. I read blushock's 116 scan and i clearly states that he wants to DEFEAT the noah, if anybody has a scan that says otherwise i would be more than willing to take a second look at it.

  2. #42
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
    Digital_Eon is offline Super Moderator Community Builder
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    Okay, not contradicting myself.

    Allen decided at the Asia branch that he was going to live to protect akuma and humans.

    Somewhere along the Ark arc (probably when he started to fight Tiki) he forgot about this. That's why he originally thought that he was fighting to kill Tiki.

    And THEN he remembered his promise to himself and was like "Oh yeah! I'm fighting for the akuma, so I have to be strong!".

    So he's a nice guy now, but he *was* thinking of killing Tiki during that fight, which means I wasn't really wrong either.

    As for the "defeat", yes, he says defeat, but you can't think he isn't planning to kill Tiki. There's really no way of defeating them without killing them; all the other Exorcists know that, and Allen himself implies multiple times during their fight that he is going to kill Tiki.
    ~Digital_Eon~




  3. #43
    shaman-king is offline Senior Member Well Known
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    He never forgot his ambitions. It was the sheer fact that he wanted to save the akuma and protect humanity that allowed him to get Crown Clown in the first place. So for him to forget that even for a short period of time is to say that he forgot his reason for living and fighting which is not the case.

    When he was fighting tyki he was going through the different degrees of ambitions that he has, it wasnt as simple as disregarding one over the other. He acknowledged that he wanted to defeat the noah but his true ambition (and the thought that would allow for the best synchro with the innocence) was the belief that his new innocence was founded on. For you to say that he forgot about because he got the impulse to kill tyki is to deny the strength of allens heart and innocence, which i once again do not agree with.

    This is not the first time ive posted this but THE ONLY reason allen THREATENED to kill tyki was because he attacked a defenseless rinalee. Ultimately allen wants to save the noah along with the rest of humanity, otherwise he wouldnt state that "he wouldnt let them escape the darkness." This im assuming is the darkness of humanity.

    Allen has always been a great guy and for you to say that he was thinking of killing tyki during "that" fight is to assume that the fight is not still going on, and to assume that the exorcists cant defeat the noah without killing them is kind of naive. They can just as easily be knocked unconscious or beaten to the point where they cant move. Just because you cant imagine a way of defeating them without killing them doesnt make it the case, and just because you say the exorcists might think the same doesnt make it fact either. It just means they need a power that can defeat them, not kill, defeat. A clear example of this is with crowley's new ability, he defeated jasdebi but they just seperated and passed out. Theyre not dead. Allen threatened to kill tyki once and ive already explained why many times. If you could post a link where he says hes going to kill him again for his own ambition i would be more than happy to give it a second look.

    Allen's pledged to save humanity and the akuma and the last time i checked the noah were noah humans as well. He doesnt want to kill them he wantsto defeat their will to destroy humanity. All the more reason to want to not let them escape from the darkness of their actions. Most of the time when a shonen character defeats a person he's defeating their ideals, just as much as his enemy. Its the same with shaman king, naruto, bleach, rurouni kenshin, or any other shonen worth mentioning.
    Last edited by shaman-king; 05-01-2007 at 07:40 AM.

  4. #44
    kawaiikitsune is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Uh... I feel kinda behind, but I just finished reading the new chapter. All I have to say is GO ALLEN!! That's pretty amazing. I'm beginning to doubt whether Allen will die or not. I'm just glad that Rinali has decided she needs to do something about it. Maybe Rinali will get a powerup soon. She definitely now seems like she wants one.

  5. #45
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
    Digital_Eon is offline Super Moderator Community Builder
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    ...but he DID forget his real reason for living and fighting. I'd also like to point out that he wasn't using his Innocence at the time, either. He was being a weak human.

    Kanda killed Boric. Crowley was trying to kill Jasdevi and would have if he'd been stronger. The Noah are trying to kill the Exorcists. Yes, Allen did threaten to kill Tiki, but he said that he might have to kill Tiki if Tiki harmed his friends. That's in 111. RIGHT AFTER (beginning of 112), Tiki and Allen are talking about death.

    The only reason Jasdevi didn't die was because Crowley wasn't strong enough, but every single fight in this arc has been to the death. This is no different; Tiki is aiming to kill Allen and I'd be surprised if Allen wasn't seriously considering killing Tiki. That's the ONLY way to stop the Noah.

    Allen's line about darkness is open to interpretation; I thought it meant something more like he'll never let them win.

    Basically, the fact is that Allen DID forget what he was fighting for - even if that was for a brief moment. That's probably why he was losing (hint hint). When he remembered, he increased his power - to make it easier to kill Tiki. Look, there's no way the Noah aren't going to die in this manga. They're evil. Every shounen manga features people DYING. What Allen is most concerned about is souls (remember, they're Catholic, they care about that), and besides, saving the world from Noah is a lot more important than not killing a Noah. He learned the consequences of that after fighting Road. Not going to happen again, yo~
    ~Digital_Eon~




  6. #46
    shaman-king is offline Senior Member Well Known
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    ara ara, ive already proved most of your statements wrong in my previous posts, so for all questions pertaining to those i will just repost my previous answer.

    As far as you saying allen forgot his reason for living i have this to repost"(When he was fighting tyki he was going through the different degrees of ambitions that he has, it wasnt as simple as disregarding one over the other. He acknowledged that he wanted to defeat the noah but his true ambition (and the thought that would allow for the best synchro with the innocence) was the belief that his new innocence was founded on. For you to say that he forgot about because he got the impulse to kill tyki is to deny the strength of allens heart and innocence, which i once again do not agree with.)" As far as allen not using his innocence it wasnt because he wasnt but because he couldnt. The vaccuum that tyki made took all the air out of that space and without oxygen flowing through the blood the limbs cramp up. Thats just science.

    I will agree that kanda killed boric, but on the topic of crowley i wil repost this "(They can just as easily be knocked unconscious or beaten to the point where they cant move. Just because you cant imagine a way of defeating them without killing them doesnt make it the case, and just because you say the exorcists might think the same doesnt make it fact either. It just means they need a power that can defeat them, not kill, defeat. A clear example of this is with crowley's new ability, he defeated jasdebi but they just seperated and passed out. Theyre not dead. )" Whether he wanted to kill him or not is irrelevant to the debate. He defeated him without killing him, therefore proving beyond without a doubt its possible.

    I do agree that what the allen said is open to interpretation.

    As far as allen forgetting what he was fighting for, you can reread the first paragraph for that, and as far as allen losing up until now i think the fight shows them going back and forth trading attacks with the momentum shifting towards tyki when he broke down crown clown but shifting back to allen when the presence of the restored innocence made tyki feel like he was being split in half. He then loses it and creates the rejection vaccuum, shortly following Crown Clown activates to the critical point. To be honest i would rather see the noah saved from whatever their trying to escape, as long as there human theres hope for redemption. Just because theyre bad guys doesnt mean they have to die.

    I do agree somewhat with allen being concerned about souls, but thats not all. He wishes to protect the lives of humanity and the human souls trapped inside of the akuma, not just the souls. This is why i believe he says he wont let the noah escape the darkness of humanity, because by the noah claiming to be immortal they then seperate themselves from humanity by rejecting the very thing that defines their own humanity, dying, and what part of human nature is darker than death?
    Last edited by shaman-king; 05-01-2007 at 03:57 PM.

  7. #47
    illust_fire is offline Senior Member Frequent Poster
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    Allen is too much a goody 2shoes. He is like, the typical hero who must protect both side, the one to balance out the black and the white. And he upgrade to perfection after epiphany.

    I'm not criticizing it: I'm like, WOW!!!!! YEA! Allen kick ass! But I can't help wishing that Allen's chara should be a little....different.
    My seahorse got eaten!
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  8. #48
    Celestial-Death-Sakura is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    I'm still worrying about Allen's body balance. ItÄd not the sword's weight I'm worrying about. Two arms are there for balance of the human body. If one arm is away, the other side with the still remaining arm is heavier than the side without. Isn't it physics?

    And because Noahs are superhuman, they aren't quite human anymore, even if they claim to be. They hate humanity, but claim to be (partly) one of them...is quite paradox if you ask me... It isn't like they#re wrong, but they can't call themselves truly human. Humans are like normal beings without any special powers.
    So, actually exorcists are only partly human, partly holy, divine....

  9. #49
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
    Digital_Eon is offline Super Moderator Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaman-king View Post
    ara ara, ive already proved most of your statements wrong in my previous posts, so for all questions pertaining to those i will just repost my previous answer.
    ...Er... you THINK you did...

    As far as allen not using his innocence it wasnt because he wasnt but because he couldnt. The vaccuum that tyki made took all the air out of that space and without oxygen flowing through the blood the limbs cramp up. Thats just science.
    Yeah, but he still wasn't using his Innocence. It's almost symbolic that when Allen isn't thinking of his reason for being an Exorcist, he's not being an Exorcist (he's not using Crowned Clown). I didn't mean that he forgot, therefore he can't use his Innocence. It's just that things look better this way.

    I will agree that kanda killed boric, but on the topic of crowley i wil repost this Whether he wanted to kill him or not is irrelevant to the debate. He defeated him without killing him, therefore proving beyond without a doubt its possible.
    But no one else is aware of that. Allen certainly isn't. Besides that, Jasdevi is still alive to terrorize the world another day, probably in the near future. How are the Exorcists going to stop the Noah if they DON'T kill them?

    As far as allen forgetting what he was fighting for, you can reread the first paragraph for that, and as far as allen losing up until now i think the fight shows them going back and forth trading attacks with the momentum shifting towards tyki when he broke down crown clown but shifting back to allen when the presence of the restored innocence made tyki feel like he was being split in half. He then loses it and creates the rejection vaccuum, shortly following Crown Clown activates to the critical point. To be honest i would rather see the noah saved from whatever their trying to escape, as long as there human theres hope for redemption. Just because theyre bad guys doesnt mean they have to die.
    Tiki always had the advantage, though - he nearly destroyed Allen's arm and created the vaccuum, which is why Allen needed more power. I don't think the Noah will live, though. They've shown themselves to be on opposite sides to the Exorcists, we've already seen a Noah die, and Hoshino-sensei definitely isn't afraid to kill people in her manga. They are bad guys, but there isn't that much hope (did I mention that they HAVE to kill Exorcists? Like, it's part of being a Noah? Road says as much in one of her conversations to Tiki).

    I do agree somewhat with allen being concerned about souls, but thats not all. He wishes to protect the lives of humanity and the human souls trapped inside of the akuma, not just the souls. This is why i believe he says he wont let the noah escape the darkness of humanity, because by the noah claiming to be immortal they then seperate themselves from humanity by rejecting the very thing that defines their own humanity, dying, and what part of human nature is darker than death?
    Humanity isn't that dark. o_o Allen has just finished saying that Exorcists are HUMAN. He doesn't think humanity is dark at all. Tiki especially has said that Noah aren't immortal (to Allen), and that they're human; it wouldn't make a lot of sense if Allen meant that. It DOES make sense if he meant that he won't let the Noah gain power over the world ("darkness" being unknown, hidden, not affecting the world), since we know that's what he wants.

    Allen *is* a good guy, and good guys kill bad guys. He's not THAT good (or naive, for that matter).

    Noah and Exorcists are still human and they've both said so - I guess it just means that they're humans with strange abilities. (So maybe they aren't so human after all - we haven't seen a Noah with immortality yet. ^_~)

    Allen must be okay to balance without one arm since he was walking around (and running, and fighting) without one arm for a couple of volumes (in China). If he didn't fall over then, he should be okay now.
    ~Digital_Eon~




  10. #50
    shaman-king is offline Senior Member Well Known
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    I dont quit understand what youre saying, digital-dono. In the first paragraph you say "(Yeah, but he still wasn't using his Innocence. It's almost symbolic that when Allen isn't thinking of his reason for being an Exorcist, he's not being an Exorcist (he's not using Crowned Clown). I didn't mean that he forgot, therefore he can't use his Innocence. It's just that things look better this way.)"

    First off by saying "yeah" im assuming you agree with my description of why allen couldnt activate crown clown. You dont disprove my theory at all, you just restate the fact that he isnt using his innocence, which i have already explained why. It wasnt that allen forget his reason, he could barely move, he had no oxygen in his body and all the muscles inside of him his body tensed up, he was on the verge of concsiousness.(Something ive already posted). You dont disprove this theory all you really say is yeah but it still happened. I dont understand what you mean when you say its almost symbolic that when he forgets the reason for being an exorcist he's no longer an exorcist. Even when he couldnt activate the innocence at the asia branch it was his belief that allowed crown clown to evolve and appear, every time he activates crown clown this belief resonates in his heart and his innocence, it's what allows crown clown to be so strong and its this very same reason that tyki cant break it down. So to assume that he forgot his belief at that time is to say that he was ready to give up and die which was not the case. He was fighting to stay conscious the entire time and it's the fact that he never gave up on this belief that allowed him to stay barely alive inside the vacuum. The last part of that statement "(I dont mean that he forgot, therefore he cant use his innocence. Its just that things look better this way)". By saying i dont mean that he forgot youre validating my reason and contradicting your previous statement, but what do mean by therefore he cant use his innocence, and if you dont mean he forgot, then what reason are you using for him not being able to activate the innocence? On this matter your just talking in circles.

    Just because youre not aware of that doesnt mean the allen isnt. And you still dont disprove my argument that its possible. Just because you cant imagine a way to stop them without them being killed doesnt mean its not possible. Another statement that i already said in my previous post. On this matter you are talking in circles as well.

    In my opinion they were trading blows, you say it like tyki broke down his arm and just decided to end it with the vacuum. The only reason he decided to get serious and create the vacuum was because he snapped after being briefly overwhelmed by the force of allens innocence. Back and forth. It was after tyki created the vacuum that allen needed the power to dispel it. Its no one way fight if you reread the chapters theyre clearly trading blows. They clash, they go at another again, they clash, they go at another again, tyki summons hundreds of golems, allen destroys them all in an instant. Back and forth. Personally i would love to see the noah saved.

    ara ara,I did not say that humanity was dark. I said that allen doesnt want to let the noah escape the darkness of humanity, and by darkness of humanity i mean death.I only think this because of most of the noah's claim to immortality, and by doing so theyre rejecting the darkest part of their humanity. Once again a statement ive made in my previous post. I cant think of an aspect of humanity darker than death.


    Im quite interested in seeing just how powerful the critical point crown clown is, but is there no d-grayman for two weeks?

 

 
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