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  1. #31
    Elcura is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    What the hell guys? Priscilla was also fucking insane. It's like being the smartest kid in a class full of retards.

    In fact, I would wager that Miata is more stable and experienced than Priscilla ever was. Miata has a one-track mind, sure. But she does what she's told and does it without emotion hindering her.

    The very first real fight Priscilla got in she freaked the fuck out and KILLED everybody.

  2. #32
    ranteil is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    Yah, sure, a chaotic child that will only listen to one person, and can't or won't think for themselves, but works on instinct is really more stable then someone who can and does choose their path, decides on their own beleifes, and fights for them?
    I'm not saying Priscilla was right, heck she was a fanatic, but she could function with and around others without needing to "play nice" and having a shaperone everywhere. The fact is that Teressa was proving her beliefs wrong, and for a fanatic, that can destroy your world. If Priscilla wasn't sane she wouldn't of freaked out like she did (granted it was a kidish way, but she was arguing her beleifes while fighting!). Even your last statement isn't really true. Priscilla was in several real fights, one of which she killed multipe Yoma without breathing hard or getting blood on herself. The only way you can call the Tereasa fight Priscilla's first "real" fight is if you mean with something that is way more powerfull then what she was at that point. If she didn't awaken, she would have died, heck if Tereasa took her seriously at the first she would of died, even awakened. Tereasa was learning to fight for others though, and that is what dulled her blade. She gave an opening, Priscilla noted it and took it.
    In short, Priscilla was a fanatic, where as Miata is nuts. Priscilla fought for her own reasons, and was a brilliant fighter for being green. Miata is a berserker, point in a direction and duck and cover. Miata fights because she can, not nessisarily because it's a good idea.

  3. #33
    chocolatefish is offline Junior Member Newbie
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    @ 4uk4ata: Well, you bring up some good points, and I agree with how it wouldn't work as the 7 want to keep a low profile but when I said join up, I didn't mean she would join them right away, or in the conventional way ^^; I was thinking eventually, for one plot twist or another, and Clarice would end up wanting to join them, with Miata in suit (though I'm not sure what the 7's opinion on that would be, but like I said, eventually). Yes, Miata doesn't seem to follow orders from anyone but Clarice, but as you said, Clarice would take orders pretty well, and she ain't the brightest bulb in the shed so I wouldn't be too worried about rebellion. Looking at the big picture, Priscilla is the big bad awakened being, the goal to beat (not counting the organization). And she's a psycho natural. Fight a wrong with another wrong, psycho skills vs. psycho skills. If you think about it, why would they suddenly bring Miata in anyway? So they can make another Priscilla? Priscilla already looked like an impossible boss from the beginning, she doesn't need a replacement. Do we know if the 7 have enough power to beat her now? Can't tell yet, and we haven't been shown the full extent of Priscilla's power yet, and if she can cow even Isley, she's gotta be packing some crazy power. Miata's unbridled now, but as you said, she's inexperienced, and still young. At the moment, she's the darkhorse (or was it blacksheep? o_O) of the game. I think she'd be more useful plotwise if she sided with the 7 first though.

    I definitely agree with Galatea joining them though.. unless she dies first.

    @ranteil: also, a difference between Miata and Priscilla is that Miata has someone to fight for. And that makes all the difference in anime/manga ;P

  4. #34
    Elcura is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Miata is indeed more stable. If you look close enough you'll see. And I don't how why you think that being able to think for yourself is a measure on how stable you are. Last time I checked, intelligence and insanity were not mutually exclusive.

    Priscilla wasn't exactly a paragon of self-belief either. She basically followed what the Organisation said like it was God's word. Look at the world, how many Claymore have truly found their own reasons to live? Teresa did, Ilena did and the Resistance did. Even while they served the Organisation, they really had their own beliefs. Priscilla did not. She was nothing more than an ideal puppet.

    If Priscilla wasn't sane she wouldn't of freaked out like she did
    I lol'd. She was so sane because she freaked out and proceeded to kill a whole region of people.

    Even your last statement isn't really true. Priscilla was in several real fights, one of which she killed multipe Yoma without breathing hard or getting blood on herself. The only way you can call the Tereasa fight Priscilla's first "real" fight is if you mean with something that is way more powerfull then what she was at that point.
    Thanks for answering your own question.

    heck if Tereasa took her seriously at the first she would of died, even awakened. Tereasa was learning to fight for others though, and that is what dulled her blade. She gave an opening, Priscilla noted it and took it.
    Irrelevant.

    Now, look at Priscilla's behaviour after she was beaten by Teresa. Is that stable? Is it sane? Nope.

    Look at Priscilla's behaviour after fighting Isley (ES3 I think), is that stable? I sure as hell don't think so.

    Look at Priscilla's behaviour in Volume 10+ (scenes with Raki), that isn't stable either. Priscilla actually now acts a lot like Miata does, except with a larger vocabulary.

    Miata is said to be mentally unstable, sure. But the last I checked, she hasn't awakened or killed a region full of people. She continues to fight and shows signs of recovery, while Priscilla merely deteriorated (rapidly, even) after a certain point and shows no signs of bouncing back. Miata is very straight forward, and she lets her pain show instead of hiding for years and letting it all erupt in a spectacular show.

    Priscilla may think for herself, may be intelligent (lol, used to be at least), may not need a chaperone (again, used to) and can play nice. But she sure as shit isn't stable. No where close.

  5. #35
    ranteil is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    First off Elucra, note that I'm always compairing past to present. That means that I'm compairing Miata to Priscella when she was in the Orginization. Now this might be hard for you to swallow, but Pris was stabel and sane before she went into combat with Tereassa. I will grant that she was a fanatic, but she knew her place, and didn't show any sign of instability or insanity. You on the other hand, seem to want to argue apples against oranges. Currently in the story, I still think that Pris is more sane then Miata, although it is a fine line. Also in the story (as is) she is a yoma now, so no hope of recovery from that (unless she becomes more calculating). So, you missed my arguments compleatly and continued to dish out opinions that had nothing to do with the conversation.
    Secondly, we only see both Miata and Pris kill around the same amount of Yoma. The diffrence in their fighting is in style and what we hear from other people, once again about the same. So they have about the same general knowledge of fights. In this statement then, I would say that Pris proves to be the better warrior. She was able to think and react to everything that was happening around her (even as she awakened) where as Miata hasn't shown that she can adapt on the feild.
    Also on the "reasons to live" mark, so did Priscilla. Her reason to live was to save and protect others from what happened to her. This is a basic tennent of the Orginization, and also part of the reason she went "Hulk" when she did. Miata, well, she is just insane. Her reason to live is there somewhere, but there isn't anything saying where it is. Maybe it's to protect "mama" a.k.a. Clairesse.
    Either way, the compairison to what they both are/were in the orginization is sound and makes sence if you look at it. It is kind of like compairing Tereassa to Clair, but of course instead of simular abilities, you are talking just pure power and what the story makes them look like.
    Last edited by ranteil; 02-22-2008 at 07:16 PM.

  6. #36
    Elcura is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    How much did we see of Priscilla in the Organisation? She had been instated like, a month before she went to fight Teresa. Priscilla was not stable, she tried to hold it together but failed miserably. You can only speculate what Miata would do if Clarice died. After all, it hasn't happened, but Priscilla's story DID happen.

    And you can't say
    The Orginization's beleifs were her beleifs.
    because that doesn't make sense when you said
    does choose their path, decides on their own beleifes, and fights for them?
    Sounds like a contradiction to me. Look at Claire, Miria and Teresa. They had choose their own paths, they believed in themselves. They didn't believe in the persona the Organisation had given them. Priscilla did. She was a puppet, nothing more. She didn't decide on anything, she just took what was thrust upon her without questioning it. How smart and mature is that?

    However, my statements were ment for when they both were in the Orginization
    You tripped up. By default, Miata wins because she still is in the Organisation. Where is Priscilla again? You can't compare them like that, because the fact remains that Priscilla has awakened while Miata has not. There is no past tense with Miata in that regard.

    I didn't realize my mistake or omit it. I said
    The very first real fight Priscilla got in she freaked the fuck out and KILLED everybody.
    I never said she had no combat experience.

    Tell me, how the hell are a bunch of random Yoma a real fight? You think fighting them is valuable combat experience? For a single digit? Seriously? Any self-respecting single digit can slay Yoma in their sleep. You answered your own question, because you said basically (and I mean basically) what I meant. Priscilla had never fought someone of Teresa's caliber. Teresa was Priscilla's first real fight, a fight where death could have been the outcome.

    I know what can happen when the anchor for a person is ripped to shreds, and it goes double for a fanatic.
    So basically, you're saying that Miata wouldn't be half as bad as Priscilla was, merely because she isn't a fanatic? Cool.

    Miata wouldn't have the controle to even think about trying to hold back (Priscilla did, but Tereassa was that good) and more then likely awaken.
    lol, what? I don't remember Priscilla holding back. If she held back she would have died when she realized she was past her limit. What actually happened is she went over her limit, tricked Teresa, killed her and awakened. A whole lot of self restrain there.

    You don't know that Miata wouldn't try to hold back, if she stabilizes then she probably could. Though it doesn't matter, as very few people have managed to half-awakened (pull back).

    he Tereassa bit was only relevant to show how calcualting Pris is even when she turns to put
    Like I said before, what does being smart have to do with being mentally stable? Answer me that and I'll concede to your point. Basically what I'm saying is, you can be one while being the other. They are not exclusive. If I wanted to go extreme, would that mean that every smart person is stable and every dumb person is unstable?

    Miata works on instinct. Instinct is a basic set of rules that Humans follow in times of trouble, if she reverted to an instinctual being that's because she's trying to protect herself and survive. That kind of behaviour in itself is not unstable. The issue arises when she mentions her parents. Priscilla had the same issues as well, but Miata is much more open and forthright about it.

    Edit: good job ninja editing your post with I was replying lol.

    More to come?

    but Pris was stabel and sane before she went into combat with Tereassa.
    And how do you know this? What is shown on the outside isn't what is in the inside. We weren't shown Priscilla's thought process throughly until Teresa had beaten her. By then it was obvious that she was crazy. What Teresa did was such a light push that she had to be fucking crazy beforehand to let something like that affect her so badly.

    ou on the other hand, seem to want to argue apples against oranges.
    Admittedly, it does seem like that, however I don't see you doing any different. It's not like either of them are paragons of mental health. I'm just saying in comparison, Miata > Priscilla.

    I still think that Pris is more sane then Miata, although it is a fine line. Also in the story (as is) she is a yoma now, so no hope of recovery from that (unless she becomes more calculating). So, you missed my arguments compleatly and continued to dish out opinions that had nothing to do with the conversation.
    Again, lol what? Seriously? I don't think I'm the one who missed the point here...

    Secondly, we only see both Miata and Pris kill around the same amount of Yoma. The diffrence in their fighting is in style and what we hear from other people, once again about the same. So they have about the same general knowledge of fights. In this statement then, I would say that Pris proves to be the better warrior.
    It was never about who's the better warrior. It's about who is more able to handle dire situations. Stronger != better. Again, I'm repeating myself. Priscilla got into a situation where she could have died but didn't. Did she walk away to fight another day? Nope, she went nuts, ignored sensible plans and eventually awakened. Miata, before the Resistance showed up, was in a very similar situation, but you saw what she did, didn't you? There was absolutely no signs that she wanted to increase her Yoki, even if she was under suppressants if she was so stupid like you make out I would have bet she would have tried.

    Also on the "reasons to live" mark, so did Priscilla. Her reason to live was to save and protect others from what happened to her. This is a basic tennent of the Orginization, and also part of the reason she went "Hulk" when she did. Miata, well, she is just insane. Her reason to live is there somewhere, but there isn't anything saying where it is. Maybe it's to protect "mama" a.k.a. Clairesse.
    Yeah, because in the end that worked out well for Priscilla, didn't it? Her belief was a contradiction to what she became, if she believed in protecting others from what happened to her then selfishly, and self-rightiously persuing someone wouldn't have been on her mind. If she was stable it wouldn't have been on her mind either. Sensible people have a sense of consequence.

    Now this might be hard for you to swallow
    Only thing hard to swallow are your posts.
    Last edited by Elcura; 02-22-2008 at 07:46 PM.

  7. #37
    ranteil is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    Heh, well Eluclair, I will deffinately give you several marks here... I really only have two questions though: One in a comparison to past vs. present with two simular charactors, how come you keep on saying things can't happen? Answer is we don't know. For all I know the Miata thing is a reflection of what could of happened to Pris, the simularities are there for us to see. Therefore the comparisons and what ifs (and my statement of apples and oranges). Second: Have you actually gotten into fights before? If your oponent knows what they are doing, it doesn't matter if you are highly talented if you don't have experiance. Imagine someone with Chuck Norris's potential (I know kinda bad example) but not knowing Martial Arts, going up against someone who knows how to use a knife. The Knife weilder wins. With a little training, the guy with potential more then likely wins. Never knock any form of experiance, because each time something tries to kill or harm you, your life is on the line. This is no matter how powerfull anyone is, or how much experiance they have (granted a single digit is less likely, but I think everyone knows the idea of not letting your gaurd down untill you know you're safe).

    As far as the "ninja edit," thank you for the comment. I didn't think you would reply so quickly, but I tried to keep the gist in just in case (in short I got destracted when I pushed Post and groaned at some of my phrasing).

    A few side notes: When I said Pris was able to hold back, I was refering to Impulses, not of the actuall release. Also once again, you fall into the trap of comparing what they were like in that time frame to what has already happened. The comparisons I'm trying to make are based on the frame of mind prior to Pris's awakening and therefore don't include her data currently. Think of it as taking a relitive point of time in two peoples lives and comparing them... like Bach and Betohveen at the age of 13. Who's greater or more well known after death, as well as works written after that time mean nothing. Just the acomplishments at that time. Or better, Babe Ruth vs. Hank Arron at age 25. Disscuss. I notice that you haven't said anything about the fanatic front, so I suggest we both read the deffinition of that prior our next set of sparing.

    Oh, and one last thing: I do enjoy this stalemate of opinion (I doubt that we will end up seeing eye to eye) and will point out a few other things in my next post (for example, unless we know what Miata has to loose, yes she won't go as far as Pris because of an awakening).

  8. #38
    Elcura is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Don't have much time so I'll make this brief.

    One in a comparison to past vs. present with two simular charactors, how come you keep on saying things can't happen?
    Because they can't. This isn't a theoretical discussion. What happened with Priscilla has happened and there is no changing that. While Miata's story (in terms of being a Claymore) is still ongoing. If they were both ABs then I would understand and it would be easier to compare. But as it stands it's like comparing the living to the dead, the living have more potential to change.

    Second: Have you actually gotten into fights before? If your oponent knows what they are doing, it doesn't matter if you are highly talented if you don't have experiance.
    Huh? What does that have to do with anything? While it's true that experience is equally as important as talent, this subtopic has nothing to do with what we were arguing about in the first place.

    A real fight is a real fight. Someone is out to take your life sure, but Priscilla's experience was limited. I never said she had no experience, but it is certainly limited. Look at how Ilena, Noel and Sophia handled the situation, both with the Yoma and Teresa. It's obvious that Priscilla hadn't done much more than fight some Yoma. And one type of experience, in fighting Yoma does not translate into experience of fighting Awakened Beings, or other Claymores.

    I was refering to Impulses
    What are you talking about? Impulses to awaken? Cause Miata isn't exactly succumbing to them? I'm not sure what you mean here.

    The comparisons I'm trying to make are based on the frame of mind prior to Pris's awakening and therefore don't include her data currently.
    You do realize that a good deal of Priscilla's insanity was shown before awakening right? The time frame you should be looking at, is after she was beaten by Teresa until she awakened. That falls under your criteria it seems. But being that selective isn't helping you at all. I could double back and say I want to compare Priscilla to Miata when Miata was sitting down on the floor doing nothing but staring at Clarisa. Cause if I went by that Criteria, Miata isn't unstable at all. She just likes to stare at people.

    What good does it do you to select a portion of her life and compare it to the whole of what we've seen on Miata? Cause if this argument was based just on what we've seen, and you want to exclude everything Priscilla did after she was beaten by Teresa, then I would agree that Priscilla was indeed more stable. But we have more information than that, we've seen a whole lot more to Priscilla which is what I'm using as a comparison. Whole vs whole, not quarter vs whole.

    Basically what you're saying is your argument is based entirely upon ignoring a large, important fraction of a person's life. That's not an argument I really wanted to take part in.

    I notice that you haven't said anything about the fanatic front, so I suggest we both read the deffinition of that prior our next set of sparing.
    I know what fanatic means. By definition it strengthens my point more, depending on how you look at it. Excessive, uncritical support of a cause, bordering (or past) obsessive. All of those traits don't exactly tell me that Priscilla was mentally stable. Quite the opposite actually.

    George Santayana, "Fanaticism consists in redoubling your effort when you have forgotten your aim"
    Does indeed sound like Priscilla, but according it still helps my point, Priscilla was an unstable puppet who had no true cause of her own.

  9. #39
    ranteil is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    Alright Elcura, let's end this disscussion on the bases that it started then. My statement was that Pris, because of her fanatical devotion to the orginization (a.k.a. her beleif structure) was more stable (a.k.a. sane) at the time of her fight with Tereassa then Miata was when she started her fight with Galatea. Your point was that Pris was already insane. Show me, then, your proof that Pris was insane at the time that the fight between her and Tereassa, and you would have made your point. I will admidt that during the fight, as Tereassa starts to tear down Pris's beleifs, she does indeed loose her sanity, if not her fighting lessons. But that is during the fight not prior.

    Just so you don't accuse of ninja editing a meaning again: I ment for the time frame to be just before the fight between Prisilla and Tereassa began, comparied to just before Miata and Galetea begin fighting.
    Last edited by ranteil; 02-23-2008 at 11:49 AM.

  10. #40
    Elcura is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    I've made all my points already. Everything I say now is me just repeating myself. The proof is there, if you just look for it. I even pointed at specific points in a previous post.

    I could hide the fact that I like women for the longest time, doesn't mean that just because I don't say it or show proof of it that it hasn't always been the case.

    But if you want a conclusion here it is:

    A small, carefully selected part of Priscilla's life vs a small, carefully selected part of Miata's life = Miata is more stable. Want to know why? Because Priscilla fought Teresa twice, first time she seemed stable (until near the end), the second time it was obvious she was a nutcase.

    Of course, in reality, looking at everything.

    Everything we know about Priscilla vs everything we know about Miata = Miata is more stable.

    So in conclusion, Miata is more stable. That, and all previous posts are my argument for it, take what you want from it and argue against whatever you want. But this is my last post on the subject, because it's becoming stale and repetitive. I've said everything I want to already.

 

 
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