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Thread: One year today.

  1. #11
    Saizou is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henchy432 View Post
    Wth are you talking about? The banks are paying money out their asses and Obama is still trying to kick them while they are down.
    What money exactly? You do remember that back when the current crisis started, the banks were broke, do you not? And you do remember Bush and Obama throwing a literal mountain of cash into bailouts to prop up the banks, do you not?

    Now, banking is ironically enough based on the notion that you have to repay your loans (often with some interest), and assuming that the banks haven't paid back all the billions they've been handed, why is it wrong to make them do so? How is this kicking them when they are down, when it is thanks to Obama's bailouts that the banks still are in business in the first place?

    Furthermore, it should be noted that all the big banks still paid as much in bonuses to their employees despite being literally broke, so perhaps there is some merit to the argument that the banks should be made to pay up. After all, what sense is there to funnel taxpayer dollars into the banks, only for all that cash to end up in the pockets of the bankers?

    In fact, Obama should have simply bought the banks outright and cleaned them up instead of propping up a house of cards with money the US government doesn't have.


    Quote Originally Posted by Henchy432
    China and Russia. The EU is going broke trying to be socialist. Countries like Spain are a fricking joke and are dragging the rest of the EU with them.
    China? China isn't capitalist in any meaningful sense of the word. It has a mixed economy that has moved closer to a free market model, but the means of production are ultimately owned by the state, not by private operators.

    Russia, on the other hand, fucked itself in the ass by switching to capitalism back in the early 90's, so I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with that point.

    And finally the EU is not socialist. Where in the EU are the means of production collectively owned by the workers? I don't think you'll find many countries where this is true.


    Then again, all this is quite besides the point, which was that Obama is in no way, shape or form a socialist politician.

  2. #12
    Henchy432 is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saizou View Post
    What money exactly? You do remember that back when the current crisis started, the banks were broke, do you not? And you do remember Bush and Obama throwing a literal mountain of cash into bailouts to prop up the banks, do you not?

    Now, banking is ironically enough based on the notion that you have to repay your loans (often with some interest), and assuming that the banks haven't paid back all the billions they've been handed, why is it wrong to make them do so? How is this kicking them when they are down, when it is thanks to Obama's bailouts that the banks still are in business in the first place?

    Furthermore, it should be noted that all the big banks still paid as much in bonuses to their employees despite being literally broke, so perhaps there is some merit to the argument that the banks should be made to pay up. After all, what sense is there to funnel taxpayer dollars into the banks, only for all that cash to end up in the pockets of the bankers?

    In fact, Obama should have simply bought the banks outright and cleaned them up instead of propping up a house of cards with money the US government doesn't have.
    There were bank that did not need the bail out, but where forced into it anyway.


    China? China isn't capitalist in any meaningful sense of the word. It has a mixed economy that has moved closer to a free market model, but the means of production are ultimately owned by the state, not by private operators.
    China's business plan is capitalist in a huge way. They are undercutting their own goverment. They keep the yuan artificially low to keep themselves competitive in the gobal market.

    Russia, on the other hand, fucked itself in the ass by switching to capitalism back in the early 90's, so I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with that point.
    Russia was broke before the 90's. You want to talk about house of cards. It's only when the "Iron Wall" fell, did we learn how much of a wreck Russia really was.

    And finally the EU is not socialist. Where in the EU are the means of production collectively owned by the workers? I don't think you'll find many countries where this is true.
    The EU is trying and failing to help everyone(IE; Spain). Real life doesn't work that way. There will always be a lower class. This isn't Star Trek

    Then again, all this is quite besides the point, which was that Obama is in no way, shape or form a socialist politician.
    Please his whole campaign was a bunch of socialist dreck.

    Even in Russia, there was no such thing as socialism. It's a fairy tale. The Heads of State in Russia were living in nice houses and had all the breadf and toliet paper they could want.

    Castro is living nice and easy is in Cuba, while kids run around without shoes.

    It doesn't matter in any system. There will always be the "Haves" and the "Haves Not".

  3. #13
    Saizou is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henchy432 View Post
    There were bank that did not need the bail out, but where forced into it anyway.
    What banks exactly, and how were they forced into accepting money against their will?

    And to take another step in the reasoning, how does this affect the entirely sensible demand that all the other banks pay back what they owe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henchy432
    China's business plan is capitalist in a huge way. They are undercutting their own goverment. They keep the yuan artificially low to keep themselves competitive in the gobal market.
    Um, isn't the very fact that the government can keep its currency artificially low evidence that the market is in fact not free? Hell about a third of the chinese economy is directly owned by the state, and the government is extremely interventionist, how does this make China capitalist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henchy432
    Russia was broke before the 90's. You want to talk about house of cards. It's only when the "Iron Wall" fell, did we learn how much of a wreck Russia really was.
    Actually no, contrary to what one often hears in the west, the Soviet Union was doing reasonably well before its dissolution.

    Then along came Yeltsin, who instituted so called "shock therapy" (eagerly cheered on by the US and the IMF), basically ending all price controls, state subsidies and trade restrictions. In practice this basically meant that a few russian oligarchs and foreign investors were able to completely loot the russian economy.

    This of course led to a lot of bad shit. For example, poverty had increased tenfold back in 2000 compared to soviet times. This is what capitalism has brought to Russia, and it isn't pretty. And Russia isn't even the worst among the ex-USSR states.

    Quote Originally Posted by Henchy432
    The EU is trying and failing to help everyone(IE; Spain). Real life doesn't work that way. There will always be a lower class. This isn't Star Trek
    Why?

    And in what exact way is the EU failing? Would Spain be better off without the EU? Or would the rest of the EU be better off without Spain?

    Or conversely, would the US be better off without, e.g. West Virginia or Mississippi?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henchy432
    Please his whole campaign was a bunch of socialist dreck.

    Even in Russia, there was no such thing as socialism. It's a fairy tale. The Heads of State in Russia were living in nice houses and had all the breadf and toliet paper they could want.

    Castro is living nice and easy is in Cuba, while kids run around without shoes.

    It doesn't matter in any system. There will always be the "Haves" and the "Haves Not".
    Now I think this is what I'm talking about right here. See, I mean no offense, but from what I can gather from your post, your definition of socialism isn't anything like how any mainstream school of socialist thought would describe it.

    So I'd like you to define the principles of socialism, identify what socialist principles Barack Obama is basing his politics on, and what exclusively socialist policies he has enacted.

  4. #14
    Henchy432 is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Alright, I am at work right. It will take some time to get back to you.

  5. #15
    deuce22 is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by 98abaile View Post
    Personally I still like him, I wasn't stupid enough to expect him to work miracles on his first day and I'm not naive enough to expect him to sort out all of America's problems in just a year.
    Sadly they're many many fools who believed that, which is utterly impossible for one to do so within a year. He's definitely been trying to do his best to get us out of this depression, which deserves some merit from everyone.

    Overall though, Obama is and has been a good president. From all the shit he's had to deal with from day 1 in office to now, he's shown composure and compassion to his country and people.


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    dna2playboy is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    I love the white man...Especially when he's dead and on a dollar. DEAD AND ON A DOLLAR!

  7. #17
    Saizou is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Noted arch-socialist Obama proposes freezing discretionary spending.

    Except for the military of course. I mean, why should any self-respecting socialist like Obama cut speding to the military? Why, no one on the US left wing has ever demanded that government money should be spent on people instead of guns, have they?

    So it's obvious, isn't it? Doesn't everybody know that spending less money on social programs and public works in the true heart of socialism?


    ...anyway, here we see that the image of Obama as a leftist doesn't match objective reality. John McCain proposed this exact measure back during his campaign for fuck's sake.

    Also, it's very like America to regard as unthinkable the cutting of funding to the single biggest, most bloated and most wasteful part of the US budget.

    On a further tangent, it also shows that the US right wing really doesn't mind big government spending as long as it's used to kill foreign people. Lovely, that.

  8. #18
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    98abaile is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henchy432 View Post
    Wth are you talking about? The banks are paying money out their asses and Obama is still trying to kick them while they are down.
    Or maybe he is just trying to reclaim the money the US spent bailing them out. The idea of loans are that they are paid back, something the previous status quo forgot (lending money to people who couldn't afford to pay it back; aka losing money by giving it away), hence the mess you/we are in now.
    As for kicking them, are they really down? These banks are still afloat and there is no way the government is going to let them go to the wall after bailing them out. I see it as reighning them in and putting them back in their place, if they're worse off because of it, its only because previously they were in an artifically high position. Throwing money away and pulling massive profits out of thin air based on credit that didn't exist. Think of what Obama is doing as restting the bar. Putting the banks where they should be, because the prosperity we all saw in previous years was just fiction, it didn't really exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Henchy432 View Post
    The EU is going broke trying to be socialist. Countries like Spain are a fricking joke and are dragging the rest of the EU with them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Henchy432 View Post
    The EU is trying and failing to help everyone(IE; Spain). Real life doesn't work that way. There will always be a lower class. This isn't Star Trek
    Please his whole campaign was a bunch of socialist dreck.
    http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=define%3A+socialism&meta= &aq=f&oq
    Not socialist, but still true. The Eu expanded way too fast, it started off as a group of rich countries in a trade union and ended up with stars in its eyes about being a super power. The problem was while addmitting countries to expand the market as a trade union, it was flooding itself with poor economies and ethical and social problems as a super power. Basically it was a right wing idea about free markets that got hijacked by the (european style) left wing who tried to turn it into some sort of multicutural cloud wank utopia where everybody smiles and love each other. The two ideas weren't compatible and the left were naieve enough to think that those in the poorer countries held the same ideals when in reality they saw it as an opportunity to further their own interests. And now the richer countries are shafted by immigration and massive bills to fund the EU and the poorer countries.

    The EU itself (at an organizational level) is also horribly corrupt

 

 
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