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  1. #11
    BlueDemon is online now Senior Member Community Builder
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    ^Hehe,you are right.We donīt have to turn this into a religious debate and since you really believe in Adam in Eve,thereīs no reason to continue with this xD
    I like it though that you didnīt go "NOOOZ YOUZ ARENT RIGHTZ" ^^

    And yeah,I talked about the Dune books (Iīll read the whole series again when I get the last book Iīm missing *W00t*)

    And what happens in Iran "just because" of religion kinda makes me sick...Itīs not like we still are in the Dark Ages,for Godīs Sake (-> oh yeah....).

  2. #12
    Saizou is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Quote Originally Posted by dna2playboy View Post
    Religions can't physically force people to follow their teachings can they?
    Not in the civilized world, thankfully. In earlier ages though, we had things like the Holy Inquisition and other assorted organizations whose sole purpose was to persecute those who did not follow the teachings of their religion. So, yes, they can do just that.

    Quote Originally Posted by dna2playboy
    People are imperfect so it's absolutely impossible for them to follow their "perfect" teachings regardless of how hard they try. They will make mistakes. You're assuming Christianity and Islam don't have rules against "harmful actions" when of course they do.
    They do, but not against all harmful actions. Do remember that during the middle ages, an era when morality and society was nearly exclusively based on christianity, things like serfdom and torture were common. How come that a supposedly "perfect" moral teaching failed to stop this?

    And how come that the medieval christian church, who in fact were the only people who even could read the Bible back the, wholeheartedly supported these systems? How could they support serfdom? Isn't keeping an entire continent full of peasants as little more than slaves a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by dna2playboy
    Who exactly would police these rules? Do we live in a Christian or Islamic state where the laws are based on their teachings? And even if we did the people who would be enforcing the laws would still be human and thus liable to make mistakes.
    Thankfully we don't live in a theocracy. But on the other hand, the entire point of the original article was that Iran persecutes people who are of the Baha'i faith. And Iran is an islamic state, and one of the prime examples of why religious laws are a horrible concept. Hell, if we go a bit back in time, several states had laws discriminating or even prescribing death for followers of other religions, measures that were eagerly supported by the religious authorities. That's no longer a problem with enforcement, now is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by dna2playboy
    Ya I meant fallible. I was tired when I was writing that. Please do forgive me. Nazism is an extreme example. For one it's not even a religion.
    How does that change anything? Both are idologies, and both tell their followers that some things are true, and some things are the right things to do. In this respect, and in the moral responsibility for the consequences of their teachings there is no difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by dna2playboy
    Give me some concrete examples of Christianity or Islam(mainly Islam since I'm a follower) telling it's followers to commit crimes. If you can't do that then you have no argument.
    This is not strictly true. You don't have to explicitly encourage someone to do something harmful to cause harm. For example, if I tell people that, say, the jews are evil, and then I tell people that it's a good thing to fight against evil, I have not explicitly told them to go and kill all the jews. Yet exactly this kind of preaching in medieval europe directly led to several pogroms and the murders of thousands of innocent people.

    And I'm not going to start searching for quotes in the Bible or the Koran, quite simply because I don't have the time. And in fact, I really don't have to because I have not categorically stated that there must be such quotes thatare unambiguously encouraging crimes. But the very fact that Islam condemns certain harmless things, such as homosexuality or even positive things, such as equality between the sexes, is enough to make it harmful.

    Quote Originally Posted by dna2playboy
    I'm Muslim and in my opinion Islam is perfect, but of course the followers are not. That's why a major part of Islam is constantly asking God for forgiveness for the sins you've committed. Of course I don't believe say Hinduism or Buddhism are perfect religions and all the blame for their people's actions are on the people. I'm Muslim so it only holds for Islam.
    So if I get this right, Hinduism and Buddhism are partly to blame for the actions of their followers, but Islam is not to blame for the actions of muslims? This is quite the double standard here.

    Quote Originally Posted by dna2playboy
    Lets not make this a religious debate. You disagreeing with my stand doesn't make you or me any less right or wrong.
    This is true. Our respective positions are right or wrong based on the strenghts of our supporting arguments, not because one of us disagrees with the other.

    But even so, it is very important to debate topics such as these, at least from my point of view. Consider for a moment, the possibility that my argument is right and that religious morals are harmful, and by extension that religion is harmful.

    From here we immediately see that a huge part of the world's population believe in directly harmful fantasies, and I might add that these fantasies also cause hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of needless deaths every year. This is also disregarding the enormous human suffering that doesn't lead directly to death.

    So I hope this clarifies my point of view somewhat, and also why I feel this is an important topic for discussion.

  3. #13
    dna2playboy is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    I so want to reply to your posts but...I'll just quote myself.
    Quote Originally Posted by dna2playboy View Post
    Ok I'm officially done with this topic tho. I didn't mean to bring religion into it(I lack foresight). I just wanted to show a cool article that Rainn Wilson wrote. If you have any replies to anything I've said, feel free to PM me. But lets kill this thread that was doomed from the start. My B
    Last edited by dna2playboy; 02-21-2009 at 07:29 AM.

  4. #14
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    Jyuu is offline Super Moderator Community Builder
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    See, that's why I don't like it when people start talking about religion and politics.
    Saizou, take it as a warning. Shut the fuck up, k?

 

 
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