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Thread: Philosophy

  1. #21
    shautieh's Avatar
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    First line : "Chaos or Khaos". There is an uppercase because he was considered as an entity on the same level than Gaia and etc.. For your information this is called personification

    Also :
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_primordial_gods

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_...the_Greek_gods << speaks for itself...

    In a word, you totally misinterpret the word "god" with "Olympian god" who are simply the 3rd generation of Greek gods

  2. #22
    adonai is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by shautieh View Post
    First line : "Chaos or Khaos". There is an uppercase because he was considered as an entity on the same level than Gaia and etc.. For your information this is called personification

    Also :
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_primordial_gods

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_...the_Greek_gods << speaks for itself...

    In a word, you totally misinterpret the word "god" with "Olympian god" who are simply the 3rd generation of Greek gods
    It's not personified in the same manner as the titans or the gods at all.

    It doesn't interact with the other deities in any way, other then being a place/thing from which they can be conveniently created, a literal form of deus ex machina. Chaos/Void also serves this same purpose in other mythologies (Christian, Egyptian, Chinese), that doesn't make it a god.


    Quote Originally Posted by Terasiel View Post
    No matter how you look at it? What if it's from a broader aspect than just what is contained within your surroundings? Couldn't you say that even atoms were at one point defined by the same belief by most people? "It's made out of matter, going smaller wouldn't make a difference."
    I have no idea what you're trying to say, how does it relate to the definition of a universe?

  3. #23
    Terasiel is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by adonai View Post
    I have no idea what you're trying to say, how does it relate to the definition of a universe?
    Okay, I'll say my piece once more and I'll drop it, considering it's apparently beyond the scope of this discussion: I'm trying to imply that in the realm of Philosophy, not science, not even deductive reasoning, contemplating the idea of a universal system in which our universe is contained is completely possible, and therefore, even if we came from the Big Bang, that the things that existed within the cloud may very well have been supplied by a greater existence on another level. If it's absorb to wonder about the "time" before the Big Bang, it's really no better for us to want to know what's beyond our own galaxy - if not for the fact that we can see glimpses of it from telescopes and therefore can justify wanting to know because it's vaguely tangible.

    Long story short: That's BS-ese for "I can't accept the fact that thinking of "before" is inherently wrong and therefore I, at least, can believe there's things that predate it that are pointless for us to know - just as much as it's pointless for us to know how old our own universe is, how big it is, or even anything beyond our own solar system's reach."

  4. #24
    adonai is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terasiel View Post
    Long story short: That's BS-ese for "I can't accept the fact that thinking of "before" is inherently wrong and therefore I, at least, can believe there's things that predate it that are pointless for us to know - just as much as it's pointless for us to know how old our own universe is, how big it is, or even anything beyond our own solar system's reach."
    I'm not saying that it's pointless, just that such a concept inherently doesn't make any sense. It's like me asking "what's over the edge of the Earth"? It doesn't make any sense because the Earth does not have an edge, just as a universe cannot exist with something "before" or "outside" it that is also perceptible.

  5. #25
    shautieh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adonai View Post
    It doesn't interact with the other deities in any way, other then being a place/thing from which they can be conveniently created, a literal form of deus ex machina. Chaos/Void also serves this same purpose in other mythologies (Christian, Egyptian, Chinese), that doesn't make it a god.
    What you think doesn't matter, Greeks considered Chaos as a god and we are speaking of Greek mythology, not what you think of it.

    Also, Chaos engendered Tartarus, Gaea, Eros, Nyx and Erebus, so I don't know where you got that it didn't interact with others. Furthermore, Gaea interacted with the other deities and men directly in most of Greek's mythology so even if your reasoning was correct, which it is not, she should be considered as a goddess.

  6. #26
    Saizou is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terasiel View Post
    Did you forget this a Philosophy discussion? The question "what came before that" has never, is never, and will never be absurd in the realm of Philosophy.

    What created the Big Bang? What components were in the Big Bang that thus became our universe? If you can't comprehend that being a real question, then you're looking at it from a scientist's point of view, not a philosopher's.
    No, I'm looking at it from a logician's perspective. As adonai pointed out the entire concept is inherently contradictory, and therefore absurd.

    And why would that point of view be any less philosophical than any other? Is it somehow forbidden to adopt a strictly logical point of view if you want to be a philosopher?

  7. #27
    adonai is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by shautieh View Post
    What you think doesn't matter, Greeks considered Chaos as a god and we are speaking of Greek mythology, not what you think of it.

    Also, Chaos engendered Tartarus, Gaea, Eros, Nyx and Erebus, so I don't know where you got that it didn't interact with others. Furthermore, Gaea interacted with the other deities and men directly in most of Greek's mythology so even if your reasoning was correct, which it is not, she should be considered as a goddess.
    Both the links that you gave links chaos back to the article that I posted, why don't we examine that to determine what the word actually means?

    In Greek mythology, Chaos or Khaos is the original state of existence from which the first gods appeared. In other words, it is the dark void of space.
    Obviously a god, right?

    It's not personified in that it's not given a gender, it is not involved in any form of conflict, it does not have a relationship with the other mythological entities.

    Even you realize this since you've just moved the goalpost to Gaea (who is assigned a gender, and does conflict/interact with certain other characters).




    Anyways, lets look at your original point against:

    I'll just take the obvious guess you're referring to the Jewish/Christian/Islamic God, in which case, there's a "Don't ask questions just obey" policy there that can't be avoided.
    You just assumed there was a general policy like this, but it is not the case...
    And even so, most mythologies have gods that existed before everything else, like the greek one, among hundreds...
    Which referred back to this:

    well if you believe in the idea of God then you believe he always existed. That he wasn't created. He is the creator. He doesn't follow the same laws of science or w/e that creation does.
    This is true for the Abrahamic religions, but that doesn't mean that it's universally true, chaos/the void/the primordial waters is present in many mythologies, and it's definitely not a god of any sort, it's even present in Christianity:

    Quote Originally Posted by Genesis 1:2
    Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
    Obviously there were two gods present at creation right?

  8. #28
    shautieh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adonai View Post
    Both the links that you gave links chaos back to the article that I posted, why don't we examine that to determine what the word actually means?
    The links are clear it was considered as a god. Your whole argument is that he isn't defined as the other Olympian gods, which only shows your ignorance on the matter, and worse, your reluctance to re-evaluate your conceited view.
    Have you difficulties understanding a family tree ? Or understanding Greek gods were not all half naked playing around on the Olympus mons ?

    Quote Originally Posted by adonai View Post
    It's not personified in that it's not given a gender, it is not involved in any form of conflict, it does not have a relationship with the other mythological entities.
    He is their father, but other than that he sure isn't important... ???!!!! Get real !


    Quote Originally Posted by adonai View Post
    Even you realize this since you've just moved the goalpost to Gaea (who is assigned a gender, and does conflict/interact with certain other characters).
    Was I not clear enough ?? Your argument is wrong to begin with and I was stating that even if the part about Chaos was right (you understand the word "even if" ??) your whole point would still be wrong as Gaea should be considered as a goddess given your misinterpretation, and she was anterior to Chronos who is her son.


    Quote Originally Posted by adonai View Post
    This is true for the Abrahamic religions, but that doesn't mean that it's universally true
    most != universally.
    If you keep misinterpreting my posts then I don't see the point of continuing this discussion.


    Quote Originally Posted by adonai View Post
    Obviously there were two gods present at creation right?
    You really have an understanding problem today.. There isn't even a hint in this sentence of there being 2 gods.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by adonai View Post
    No matter how you look at it, there is no time before the big bang, time is a measure of change, it's a meaningless concept if nothing exists.

    "What came before that" is also absurd because it's not something that can be resolved empirically, a universe is by definition self contained, what exists "outside" an universe literally does not matter.
    Well there are vast regions of space today in which absolutely "nothing" exists. Just wanted to throw that out there.

    On second thought, do the waves/particles of light/radiation count as "something"?


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  10. #30
    adonai is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by shautieh View Post
    The links are clear it was considered as a god. Your whole argument is that he isn't defined as the other Olympian gods, which only shows your ignorance on the matter, and worse, your reluctance to re-evaluate your conceited view.
    Have you difficulties understanding a family tree ? Or understanding Greek gods were not all half naked playing around on the Olympus mons ?
    Let's look at your links:

    Click on chaos in either one, and it'll lead you to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_&#37;28mythology%29


    Which I posted here:
    Quote Originally Posted by adonai View Post
    The first two lines of which is:

    In Greek mythology, Chaos or Khaos is the original state of existence from which the first gods appeared. In other words, it is the dark void of space.
    It's completely disingenuous to provide a definition from two pages that does not actually define chaos, when the word itself links to the article that I had already posted to support my point.

    So thank you for proving me right I guess.


    You really have an understanding problem today.. There isn't even a hint in this sentence of there being 2 gods.
    Like I said, chaos/the void/the primordial waters/the cosmic egg are synonymous, they're present in a large amount myths, including the Christian creation myth, with the difference being that god is separate from the void in that case, whereas the other myths involves the gods being created.




    Quote Originally Posted by StealDragon View Post
    Well there are vast regions of space today in which absolutely "nothing" exists. Just wanted to throw that out there.

    On second thought, do the waves/particles of light/radiation count as "something"?
    Even empty space has a zero state energy.

 

 
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