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  1. #31
    deuce22 is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon View Post
    Right, so it's okay that Iraq could find itself in a civil war and even more Iraqi civilians are going to die - because the US made a mistake and now it wants to correct it by pretending nothing happened? I think Iraq almost needs real international intervention - peacekeepers - something that can prevent the situation from becoming worse than it is. If the world isn't going to help, American soldiers are there already. Yes, they're dying. That's very sad. Are their lives worth more than those of Iraqis? No. And I honestly think it's far better for lives to be sacrificed in the interests of stabilizing a country long-term than losing those lives to a civil war. The US shouldn't have gone to Iraq, but that doesn't mean that it can just remove itself and pretend nothing happened.

    ...but at least you have a real issue in Iraq. The Canadian government wants to remove its troops from Afghanistan (which, as I'm sure most of you know, has a very real problem with the Taliban. And if you don't think those bastards need to be permanently removed... from this world...) because we've lost soldiers too. Seventy-something soldiers. >_>;; That's just pathetic.
    I completely understand where you're coming from and i agree that the united states made a huge mistake going there, but the US soldiers have been there for 4 or so years now trying to help regain control of society. In short, there's been no stability there. Like i was saying earlier though, gotta cut your loses somewhere. Meaning troop lives, us dollars, etc.

    blah....kinda busy, i'll reply more later.


  2. #32
    Wompa1 is offline Senior Member Well Known
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    In all honesty, I'm asking everyone here, do you honestly care about the Iraqis? Before, during, or even during the US occupation in Iraq? May sound a bit harsh, cold, or whatever, but I don't really care how the Iraqis run their place. From what I've been seeing the past couple of years during this "war," America has been on a decline ever since the first bomb was dropped.

  3. #33
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
    Digital_Eon is offline Super Moderator Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by deuce22 View Post
    I completely understand where you're coming from and i agree that the united states made a huge mistake going there, but the US soldiers have been there for 4 or so years now trying to help regain control of society. In short, there's been no stability there. Like i was saying earlier though, gotta cut your loses somewhere. Meaning troop lives, us dollars, etc.
    Iraq was more stable before the invasion, but from what I've read in magazines (okay, okay, mostly TIME), things are improving somewhat. Just because things aren't perfect doesn't mean that even a little improvement is a good thing. I recall reading that some of the formerly anti-American militias or tribes (I think it's the former) are already starting to cooperate and work with the Americans. Things have changed over those four years. It's not like the US hasn't made any impact on Iraq after all that time.
    ~Digital_Eon~




  4. #34
    Raszagal is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Iraq was stable because everybody was afraid for the secret police. Anybody who did a 'crime' (in the eyes of Saddam etc) had to pay big time. The country was ruled by fear. =/

    But I see what you mean, at least now they have a chance of having a 'safer' country. Buts its great to see some changes are happening in Iraq, Though, I still believe that forces are needed to 'keep peace' even though the country is goin to be decleared "free" in many years. Its just one step of a time downthere, If everybody leave now when they need US & Alies the most, its goin to be another Vietnam, Kenya etc.

    But for a more interesting question. Would it be allright to invade other countries so they can uphold our view on liberty? Like all the stuff goin on in Dafur etc.

  5. #35
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
    Digital_Eon is offline Super Moderator Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raszagal View Post
    But for a more interesting question. Would it be allright to invade other countries so they can uphold our view on liberty? Like all the stuff goin on in Dafur etc.
    It shouldn't be okay for one country to do so, but in my opinion, the UN should be able to do so. However, there are more problems in countries like Darfur than not sharing a Western view of liberty (that is, GENOCIDE). Then again, a lot of oppressive regimes do have those problems. It wouldn't be a good idea to invade, say, Russia or China, or even Cuba, but why not something like North Korea where the people really are suffering?
    ~Digital_Eon~




  6. #36
    hatorihanzoe is offline Member Newbie
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    Should withdraw, America should stop playing the police around the world and should take care of its people first instead of worying about others. One question is why they invade Iraq for suspision of nukes where north korea got a real nuke and is under the same dictatorship as sadam? should they hit north korea instead? seriously why did americans elected BUSH twice? thought nobody wanted bush to be president on the first election.

  7. #37
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    A big reason no one is invading North Korea is China. It took forever to convince China that something needed to be done about North Korea and impose sanctions on it. How would China react to an invasion?
    ~Digital_Eon~




  8. #38
    Saizou is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Quote Originally Posted by shautieh View Post
    Don't forget it is an isolated case ! There are cops in the US and elsewhere who are worse than the criminals they are supposed to arrest, but that doesn't mean the police force does more harm than good on the whole.
    Iraq's police force and to a lesser extent army are full of shi'ite militants. They use their uniforms and weapons as a means to conduct religious cleansing, i.e. to murder the Sunnis. We're not talking about some sort of isolated incident either, on the contrary the evidence indicates that even some senior officers are accepting or even activly involved with mass murder.

    Quote Originally Posted by shautieh
    About the researches to find out infiltrators, it is bound to fail : there is no money, and a serious lack of people, so they have to lower their expectations. The same could be said of the US military (or others) too, as you can't always be picky.
    What the flying fuck? Are you seriously retarded or something? Don't you realize that recruiting thugs into the police/military will only produce trained and heavily armed thugs?


    In general Iraq is an total mess, and in the state of an de facto civil war. The "progress" that has happened is illusory because any solution of the iraqi question is a political and not military one. All the military successes in the world are worthless if you're unable to translate them into political gains.

    Therefore the argument that America should keep troops in Iraq to give the iraqi government time to solve their problems is absurd.

    The dirty little secret is that the Iraqi government obviously is unable or unwilling to actually end the conflict. Any peacekeeping operation under those circumstances would be indefinite in scope and would in the best case only amount to keeping the lid on the kettle. And to be frank, the US hasn't even been able to keep that lid on, which tens of thousands of dead iraqis (which is the low estimate) and millions of dispossessed iraqis who were forced to flee their homes are ample evidence of.

    Naturally it is absurd to keep pouring blood and money into an already lost battle. Therefore the logical choice would be to withdraw as soon as feasible.

  9. #39
    shautieh's Avatar
    shautieh is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saizou View Post
    Iraq's police force and to a lesser extent army are full of shi'ite militants. They use their uniforms and weapons as a means to conduct religious cleansing, i.e. to murder the Sunnis. We're not talking about some sort of isolated incident either, on the contrary the evidence indicates that even some senior officers are accepting or even activly involved with mass murder.
    give me others example then ? Good luck finding a lot of them !
    And don't give me obvious crap like there are religious and ethnic cleansings, because that was clearly not what I was talking about.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saizou View Post
    What the flying fuck? Are you seriously retarded or something? Don't you realize that recruiting thugs into the police/military will only produce trained and heavily armed thugs?
    Do you read what you write ? Because if you don't see the difference between recruiting people, among whom there happen to be thugs, and recruiting thugs, then you are more than retarded. Unless you think the police and military there should recruit no one just in case they recruit a thug ? That is some stupid rhetoric...

  10. #40
    Saizou is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Quote Originally Posted by shautieh View Post
    give me others example then ? Good luck finding a lot of them !
    And don't give me obvious crap like there are religious and ethnic cleansings, because that was clearly not what I was talking about.
    Very well then. How about this? Apparently the entire national iraqi police force should be disbanded and reorganized, according to an independent U.S report ordered by congress.

    Or maybe a case from 2006 when they had to suspend an entire goddamn police brigade? Isolated incidents indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by shautieh
    Do you read what you write ? Because if you don't see the difference between recruiting people, among whom there happen to be thugs, and recruiting thugs, then you are more than retarded.
    You apparently don't realize two things. First of all recruiting even one thug is bad becuse that can be all it takes for something unacceptable to happen. Additionally soldiers and policemen are in a line of work that should have higher ethical standards than the vast majority of other professions. This should be clear because they have far greater authority than others and the little fact that they also have access to far greater firepower than the man on the streets.

    And it's not as if just one thug has been recruited either, as I have clearly demonstrated.

    Second, if recruiting standards are low the more intelligent thugs will actively enlist so that they can use their new positions to further their agenda. Obviously tis is a bad thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by shautieh
    Unless you think the police and military there should recruit no one just in case they recruit a thug ? That is some stupid rhetoric...
    My point is that the police and army contribute to the problems in Iraq and that low standards of recruitment is a big cause of that. Therefore the standards should be set higher, and thugs should not be recruited. Something that should be quite clear, but also something that you've failed to grasp.

 

 
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