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  1. #11
    kayangelus is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    I have to say, that his phrasing is what made it racist. I think he said that every black scientist is dumber than other scientists, but if he had said that the average black is dumber than the average non-black, that would be pretty much correct. If people complained, wouldn't be all that hard to pull out a few IQ tests, statistics on percents of each race who had good grades in collage, etc. Would be interesting to compare...


  2. #12
    adonai is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by shautieh View Post
    @adonai : wouldn't that be called natural selection ? I guess it's a touchy subject, but in theory it's highly possible that the average intelligence isn't the same for every population on earth, as everything else. Of course it's only a generalization which is impossible to demonstrate accurately, but I'd like to hear if he has any facts to prove his point.
    Nope, the concept of natural selection doesn't just apply to genetics, all factors that contribute to the survival of an individual and can be passed down to (or is associated with) the descendants (or other relatives) of that individual are collectively selected for, including ideas such as a religion.

    Logically, if the local environment selects against someone based on their beliefs, individual intelligence is divorced from that belief, so the environment does select against "stupidity", it selects against "Judaism". It's like saying that living in an environment lower oxygen content would cause a selection for greater strength, it's a non-sequitur, a low oxygen environment would select for bigger hearts and lungs and a great red blood cell count, not strength, persecution based on religion would select for conversion or hiding one's religion, not greater intelligence.

    Aside from that, race is incredibly difficult to define when it comes to humans, if you ask someone to identity two different people's "race" only by their genetic codes, it would be pretty much impossible.

    Finally, for intelligence itself, it's clear that environmental and genetic factors both make significant contributions to overall development, but since it's a universally favorable trait, I highly doubt that individual "races" can have greatly different intelligence without the environmental factors coming into play. And a great part of the environment is the culture and thought that is also passed along from generation to generation.

    Race is much more a cultural construct than a genetic one anyways (if you accept ethnicity as a synonym), so if you have to argue for natural selection, I would highly advise that you take into account the cultural factors before the genetic ones.

    I wouldn't say that he's wrong when he says that Africans tend to be less intelligent (as measured by something like an IQ test), but it's wrong to definitively attribute that to genetics.

  3. #13
    StealDragon's Avatar
    StealDragon is offline Super Moderator Community Builder
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    *Sigh*

    ... Here we go again.




    ... I don't want to talk about this. I'm just sick of people in positions of respect taking potshots at my race. That because of an abundance of melanin, it must means I need to be treated in some special way or put into some fucking generalized category. If you think I'm inherently inferior then come and do something about it. If you're just gonna sit and run your mouth from you high horse, do the world a favor and just shut the fuck up.

    I can't start ranting. I just can't.


    I'd like to die with the songs I love stuck in my head. I hope to make the most of these hollow bones we become.
    I raise a toast to the the souls that sang all along. I've been gathering friends to just to make some sounds,
    before the ship goes down, I've been making amends by making the rounds before the whole world ends


    [Chit Chat Specific Forum Rules] // Last Update - Friday March 13, 2009

  4. #14
    silverwmoon is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    *huggles SD*


    Erm.. isn't intelligence not everything anyhow? lol I might be considered intelligent, but frankly, I'm dumb as a post half the time because I can't be bothered to get off my ass and study... It doesn't matter how intelligent you are, it matters how hard you work really. Because of you're "intelligent" but don't work at it, you're kinda useless aren't you?

    What I'm trying to say is even if a race is "less intelligent" than another.. I am thinking they probalby make up for it more than enough by being hard working or extremely capable physically.

    'cept those damn asians, they're smart AND work hard.. why can't they be lazy and normal like the rest of us? :P (I AM teasing if you didn't know.)

  5. #15
    shautieh's Avatar
    shautieh is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by adonai View Post
    Nope, the concept of natural selection doesn't just apply to genetics, all factors that contribute to the survival of an individual and can be passed down to (or is associated with) the descendants (or other relatives) of that individual are collectively selected for, including ideas such as a religion.
    I didn't say it only applied to genetics, but it does apply to it.
    Also, I think I shall pinpoint what I called intelligence in my last post, as it was supposed to be devoid of its culture component (as the guy was speaking of intelligence from a genetic point of view only, I think... And as you said it doesn't amount for much of our total intelligence), so I would define it as our primitive or potential processing power (which is defined by genetics, and vary from individual to individual).


    I wouldn't say that he's wrong when he says that Africans tend to be less intelligent (as measured by something like an IQ test), but it's wrong to definitively attribute that to genetics.
    If you measure it with an IQ test, of course the culture will have a much more important role than the genetic, and that's why I said (genetic) intelligence couldn't really be measured, and if it was it wouldn't matter much as culture indeed plays a much more important role.


    PS : again, an average over a whole population (and worse, a non homogeneous populations) doesn't have much significance.

  6. #16
    echoblaze is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by adonai View Post
    Nope, the concept of natural selection doesn't just apply to genetics, all factors that contribute to the survival of an individual and can be passed down to (or is associated with) the descendants (or other relatives) of that individual are collectively selected for, including ideas such as a religion...
    where did you get that ? o_O;; first-year biology courses will teach you that natural selection deals with physical traits, and that would be the original/scientific definition of it. the only way "natural selection" would have anything at all to do with "intelligence", would be that humans evolved a larger brain in order to beat out competition.

    in any case, we're way past the point of natural selection. nowadays it's artificial selection where whoever can afford the right medical treatment will survive. but i digress.

    the original article had the right idea - more than anything, it's the influences from where and how you grew up that affect your intelligence more than anything. the only reason why africa may seem to be less intelligent, would obviously be they have way less resources than we do (i'm assuming that we're all residing in developed countries).

  7. #17
    adonai is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by echoblaze View Post
    where did you get that ? o_O;; first-year biology courses will teach you that natural selection deals with physical traits, and that would be the original/scientific definition of it. the only way "natural selection" would have anything at all to do with "intelligence", would be that humans evolved a larger brain in order to beat out competition.
    Let's take a look at wikipedia:

    Natural selection is the process by which favorable traits that are heritable become more common in successive generations of a population of reproducing organisms, and unfavorable traits that are heritable become less common.
    I would definitely say that culture (and therefore patterns of behavior) is a "heritable trait" in this context. Survival isn't just dependent on how an organism is constructed physically, it's depends on behavior that may be passed along from generation to generation.

  8. #18
    R3dKnight is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Maybe he is right, maybe



    so maybe this can explain the "big" penis theory.

  9. #19
    rabidfuzzybunny is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by kayangelus View Post
    If people complained, wouldn't be all that hard to pull out a few IQ tests, statistics on percents of each race who had good grades in collage, etc. Would be interesting to compare...
    One comparison might be to have the IQ test scores for a large random sample group of individuals and also have the DNA test results available for each persons genetic ancestry...then see if there's any significant relationships between the two.

    Mixed ancestry is a problem and apparent skin color or what race a person might claim they belong can differ to a greater or lesser extent from what DNA testing could indicate.

  10. #20
    echoblaze is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by adonai View Post
    I would definitely say that culture (and therefore patterns of behavior) is a "heritable trait" in this context. Survival isn't just dependent on how an organism is constructed physically, it's depends on behavior that may be passed along from generation to generation.
    "heritable traits" are physical factors. any genetics class or even high school biology classes will teach you that about "inheritance" and "traits".

    and culture is not "heritable". where and how your parents grew up can be different than where and how you yourself grew up. the very idea/meaning of inheriting something, is getting something from a previous generation. those two things combined shows that culture isn't something you inherit.

    and survival has *everything* to do with physical traits. it's only now, in the modern era, that has changed (which was what i was saying about "artificial selection").

    an example: how would culture and religion help you, when you're fighting bare-handed against a lion ?

    edit: at the people stating links between genetics and IQ tests, again, how you grew up (ie. how you were educated - if at all - and what experiences you attain) has everything to do with your intelligence. if there was any correlation that showed up between nationality and intelligence, it's because of their condition of living, NOT their natural abilities

 

 
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