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  1. #101
    shautieh's Avatar
    shautieh is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    did you read what I wrote in my recent posts at least ? If you think we would have attained this degree of knowledge nowadays without the help of countless religious people in the middle age and later you are dead wrong. Every fucking piece of greek philosophy and knowledge would have been lost among countless other things. There would have been no universities, and thus would maybe still be living like 500 years ago. I said it 2 times but 90% of the educated people were ecclesiastic for a long time. Also who do you think tried to educate most people including peasants ?? it was ecclesiastics again, as the nobility would have been too glad to let others stay less educated than them (which they weren't a lot).
    Isn't this heritage enough for you ? Do you realistically think a bunch of ignorant peasants and self-assured elite would have been of great help ?

    Another example : Incas had an incredibly excellent knowledge of stars and mathematics. Why ? for religious purposes. Indeed, the same can be said for most civilizations, for which religion was a factor of scientific development (and sometimes was a brake, but saying one without recognizing the other is being utterly ignorant and obtuse) !


    Also, there wouldn't be any great tasting beer available :P

  2. #102
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    98abaile is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by shautieh View Post
    did you read what I wrote in my recent posts at least ? If you think we would have attained this degree of knowledge nowadays without the help of countless religious people in the middle age and later you are dead wrong. Every fucking piece of greek philosophy and knowledge would have been lost among countless other things. There would have been no universities, and thus would maybe still be living like 500 years ago. I said it 2 times but 90% of the educated people were ecclesiastic for a long time. Also who do you think tried to educate most people including peasants ?? it was ecclesiastics again, as the nobility would have been too glad to let others stay less educated than them (which they weren't a lot).
    Isn't this heritage enough for you ? Do you realistically think a bunch of ignorant peasants and self-assured elite would have been of great help ?

    Another example : Incas had an incredibly excellent knowledge of stars and mathematics. Why ? for religious purposes. Indeed, the same can be said for most civilizations, for which religion was a factor of scientific development (and sometimes was a brake, but saying one without recognizing the other is being utterly ignorant and obtuse) !


    Also, there wouldn't be any great tasting beer available :P
    Whoa, calm down, I was just asking for an example. -_-;

  3. #103
    StealDragon's Avatar
    StealDragon is offline Super Moderator Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by shautieh View Post
    What is the link with sexism ?
    To deny a womans rights simply because shes a woman. Come on theres no huge deduction there and no possible way you can deny the rampant sexism not brought on by but fueled by and encouraged by religion.
    Quote Originally Posted by shautieh View Post
    What you just said is bullshit and wrong on so many levels o_o

    It is also totally stupid to say that scientific research were deemed to be heretic as heresy had to do with a person's faith, or more exactly its reject of the common gospel. Were do you see the link with science in it ?? (and as I already said science grew through religious communities so how can you say it was considered heretic or rejected ? that makes no sense at all !)
    Galileo. Copernicus. Darwin.

    http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-sciencechristianity.htm
    Quote Originally Posted by shautieh View Post
    About adultery, when you make a pact to remain faithful with someone and then break it, it's not bad ? I'd like you to explain me how you can think that....

    about witchcraft you are being misleading as it was as much of a non religious repression than a religious one, headed by the elites. If you wanted to be logical you should blame the elites of those times who wanted to control the masses by killing the abnormals instead of overgeneralising out of context things.


    If you want to judge religion from past fact, at least try to be :
    - objective
    - put the things into their fucking context ! Death punishment wasn't a big deal in the time you are speaking about, and way worse things were being done elsewhere without any religious intent.
    You want to talk about me taking things out of context? You just did it yourself. I was talking about capital punishment for adultery, heresy, etc. If you honestly believe that those actions are punishable by death then I'll end this conversation right here and now. Marriage is not a thing. It does not exist. There are two people, under varying circumstances, who have bonded themselves together socially. No lighting will strike, no rivers will overflow, no babies will fall dead in their sleep because one person broke that bond. So do not pretend otherwise. And on an ancillary note the concept of "bad" is relative, suppose it was a willing breach of the bond agreed upon by both persons?

    I cannot believe you just said that the burning of witches was non religious but instigated by elite members of society... Are you shitting me. Tell me who were the elites in Salem.

    Quote Originally Posted by shautieh View Post
    I am not sure to understand what you meant here... ?
    Then don't worry about it. Its just a quip.


    Quote Originally Posted by shautieh View Post
    That supposed defiance is not particularly recent, it's just that nowadays more people tend to see science as a religion and thus don't care about others (or worse, bitch about them without knowing a shit about them)
    Science as a religion. Lol. Who is/are the paradigm deity[s]? Alas I shall jest no more... Its possible to view science as a religion, that is true - the only thing is. No one does regardless of how credible the connection is. If it was a religion you show me another that has as much empirical proof as all of the disciplines of science, then tell me people should care about others. Hypothetically of course.


    Quote Originally Posted by shautieh View Post
    The advancement of science and technology have not much thing to do with religion though as the 2 are totally separate, and don't exclude each other at all (that's why it's so funny when someone when to discredit the first with the second and vice versa)
    No.
    Quote Originally Posted by shautieh View Post
    About men wanting to prove themselves to be in the centre of the universe I disagree, because clearly most people didn't give a shit (including all the uneducated ones who at the time represented most of the non religious population), and for those who did it was 50/50 for a very long time, and science proved later the 2 were right ^_^
    ...men are narcissists. Men in power are bigger narcissists. Such is the nature of our race. It takes hard evidence to make us see just how insignificant we are. Did you know that up until pictures like these...



    ...were taken there were still people disputing whether the Earth was round? Some still say this is the only empirical proof we have to say this and that the whole thing is just a hoax. If I could find my map of the universe I'd post that just to show whatever remaining non-believers there are that we are not the center of the universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by shautieh View Post
    edit :

    True, but to be fair I would add :
    The question is: Has religion ever boosted scientific advance?
    The answer is: Yes it has.

    ~
    This is true. But how odd is it that nearly none of those advances contradict the religions of the people who discovered them. Maybe those ancient religions are better than the ones we have today... =)


    I'd like to die with the songs I love stuck in my head. I hope to make the most of these hollow bones we become.
    I raise a toast to the the souls that sang all along. I've been gathering friends to just to make some sounds,
    before the ship goes down, I've been making amends by making the rounds before the whole world ends


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  4. #104
    Popothepenguin is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Well, I'm enjoying this.

    Quote Originally Posted by StealDragon View Post
    In addition to what Adonai wrote...

    I would find the religious justification for the slavery of Africans but I don't feel like searching through The Mismeasure of Man
    There is none... at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by StealDragon View Post
    ...

    >

    YES its a fucking bad thing and if you don't understand why then youre a fucking moron!!! And for women it's non-negotiable, to dictate sexual rules based on gender is sexist and wrong.
    Sorry, I totally misread what you wrote. I thought you were talking about keeping back the act of sex, not female rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by StealDragon View Post
    Bull shit. Science had to fight tooth and nail against constant claims of heresy from the church regardless of who was in control. Its not just Catholics, so don't pretend the Reformation fixed everything. Remember Puritanism was a product of the Reformation as well and if there were any denomination as conservative as them with such influence... Look whatever you think realize that its still going on today.
    It didn't fix it, and yes puritans are a little too strict on everything. But you can't blame a group for the entire religion. I won't go any farther because shautieh has explained mostly what I would say and more.
    Lol, I watched that video for 10 seconds. That guys retarded and a bad arguer.

    Quote Originally Posted by StealDragon View Post
    Not really no. I was at the time thinking more of the possibility of Mary being stoned to death although I guess that is part of the Old Testament. I'm not going to try to touch morality since that is a matter of opinion and I think the idea of a "collective opinion" is fundamentally flawed and a guaranteed failure on every level (see Priests+little boys). I was not talking about recent genocides as I don't think the majority of them have been religiously based. As for the death sentence I'm all for it. Some crimes, most depending on the circumstance, deserve the death penalty... however things like adultery, heresy and blasphemy, "witchcraft"... worthy of death? Psht. No. Those aren't even crimes. Is abortion murder... ehhh... I don't think so as the fetus is not sentient during the vast majority of abortions. Parenthood should not be a surprise it should be planned and timed for the welfare of the child and if that means stopping a birth then so be it.

    And no its not the world be pro-murder, its the gradual shift since the beginning of christianity towards a more liberal stance. Its been happening since day 1 and its not going to stop. I don't want to sound offensive but the days their anachronistic views are numbered.
    Did you even care to read the story of Mary about to be stoned? Jesus took up the stone and said "he who is without sin cast the first stone". And then he didn't. This is a grand example of the meaning of christianity. Not to judge others because we are all sinful, and even God who is sinless will forgive us our sins. I don't care what some superstitious freaks did 100's of years ago.



    Quote Originally Posted by StealDragon View Post
    Man please. Who do you think you're kidding? Sure the bible may say so but damn is it ever hard to find... I mean shit it took catholics 2000 damn years to get the pope in a mosque so don't come waltzing up with idealistic ideals that are routinely ignored. Find me a group of christians that would walk up to an Islamic extremist and tell them all is forgiven and they love them unconditionally. I won't insinuate that no one follows those guidelines, but the ways in which they do such are very different from the ways in which they're meant to be.

    Oh and "sinful desires" are a matter of opinion.
    I'm not kidding anybody. What does the pope going to the mosque have anything to do with not judging people. We can tolerate other religions, but that doesn't mean we have to agree with them or participate with them. Also, Christians are humans like the rest of us. We all sin, and sadly most Christians go to church on sunday and they don't even read the bible. It's actually not hard to find at all. The bible's main focus can be summed as "Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself". The others are repeated countless times in the new testament. And according to sinful desires, it follows the ten commandments (I'm not saying yours but what is addressed in the bibles.




    Oh, and science and religion can coexist because science is God's creation. He planned and made everything, so thats why Christians can believe both. Additionally with that verse from corinthians, it says to sway with philosophy (I can't remember what it said exactly) because Jesus is the one and only truth is taken out of context, because it was talking about different religious ideas rather than scientifical. The only form of science that I think have taken a religious like zeal is evolution, because there are still many flaws with the theory. And even if evolution did occur, it would not harm my faith one bit.
    Last edited by Popothepenguin; 08-15-2007 at 06:23 PM.

  5. #105
    adonai is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Popothepenguin View Post
    There is none... at all.

    That's just not true, like I said before, while there's little explicit justification for it, that's because it's not needed, it's a practice that's been accepted, there's no reason to explain it. As you can see from all the passage containing the word "slave".

    It didn't fix it, and yes puritans are a little too strict on everything. But you can't blame a group for the entire religion. I won't go any farther because shautieh has explained mostly what I would say and more.

    Anything that is superfluous is in practice an impediment, religion cannot contribute to science because science operates outside of religion.

    Oh, and science and religion can coexist because science is God's creation.

    Science is a system of thought created to facilitate the gathering and evaluation of knowledge, it's an inherently human concept because any omniscient entity would have no need of science. Specifically, science relies upon observable and repeatable phenomena which can produce theories that reliably predict future events or cause and effect relationships. Science also happens to inherently contradict the concept of religion, which relies on a system of beliefs not necessarily grounded in science and the concept of faith (belief that is not based upon proof).
    __________

  6. #106
    Popothepenguin is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    http://www.worldwideschool.org/libra...ss/chap12.html
    This is the life and narrative of fredrick douglass I was talking about.

  7. #107
    cpr's Avatar
    cpr
    cpr is offline Super Moderator Community Builder
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    Um.. usually I'm part of the heart of these religious debates (which almost ALWAYS somehow miraculously turns into a Christian debate)

    Just wanted to give my propz to popothepenguin. I like seeing more Christians on the forum. ^___________^

  8. #108
    Dante Obscuri is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by StealDragon View Post
    You're probably technically right. I won't decide. But I do know this, in order for me to have been ethnocentric then my opinion would have to be reflected in its own culture or the one generally accepted by men. I can only view the situation as a man and I think respect and equality for women should not even be a question. It should be inherent in every man not to stifle a woman in any way whatsoever, as is hers not to stifle a man.
    If you would have been born in, say, Saudi Arabia, you'd probably regard women as inferior to men. (Emphasis on "probably".)

    Quote Originally Posted by shautieh View Post
    That supposed defiance is not particularly recent, it's just that nowadays more people tend to see science as a religion and thus don't care about others (or worse, bitch about them without knowing a shit about them)
    I meant, the defiance against religion became more overt recently. I wouldn't know about people viewing science as a religion, though. If with that you meant that people are quite devoted to it, then I think I'd agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by shautieh View Post
    The advancement of science and technology have not much thing to do with religion though as the 2 are totally separate, and don't exclude each other at all (that's why it's so funny when someone when to discredit the first with the second and vice versa)
    I meant that science and technology were not advanced enough to disprove religious beliefs, or at least, not as much as in our days.

    Quote Originally Posted by shautieh View Post
    About men wanting to prove themselves to be in the centre of the universe I disagree, because clearly most people didn't give a shit (including all the uneducated ones who at the time represented most of the non religious population), and for those who did it was 50/50 for a very long time, and science proved later the 2 were right ^_^~
    I thought of Geocentricism when I posted that, but as I already said, I am quite ignorant at this matters.


  9. #109
    StealDragon's Avatar
    StealDragon is offline Super Moderator Community Builder
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    I can only address one thing because I am quite drunk and quite tired.
    Quote Originally Posted by Popothepenguin View Post
    Did you even care to read the story of Mary about to be stoned? Jesus took up the stone and said "he who is without sin cast the first stone". And then he didn't. This is a grand example of the meaning of christianity. Not to judge others because we are all sinful, and even God who is sinless will forgive us our sins. I don't care what some superstitious freaks did 100's of years ago.
    How did Jesus save her when he wasn't even born yet. I'm referring to when Joseph decided not to have her killed when it was discovered she was pregnant with a baby that was not his.


    I'd like to die with the songs I love stuck in my head. I hope to make the most of these hollow bones we become.
    I raise a toast to the the souls that sang all along. I've been gathering friends to just to make some sounds,
    before the ship goes down, I've been making amends by making the rounds before the whole world ends


    [Chit Chat Specific Forum Rules] // Last Update - Friday March 13, 2009

  10. #110
    ozarugold is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    I find it so difficult to read these posts now. So wordy and all smart sounding...

    Anyways, to keep the atmosphere on a lighter note, I got brownies. Free brownies for all!
    Are you happy? I am happy.

 

 
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