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Thread: Oh God...

  1. #71
    Hanul is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    I was raised to be just Christian (I've been catholic, protestent, baptist and a bunch of all those other big sects in christianity). I used to be fanatical when I was young. Then I started to ask questions as I got older. Now I despise christianity, lol.

    Until one has given everything, one has given nothing.
    —Georges Guynemer

  2. #72
    Krytha is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    My religious views are: Let's not think about that, shall we?

  3. #73
    ShameOnAMonk is offline Junior Member Newbie
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    I am not religious in any sense. I'm somewhat of a new age deist. My outlook is that christianity is a good thing for a lot of people, and I will not argue that it has no beneficial value, but when it comes to blind fanatical faith is when I tend to become somewhat hostile to those of the religion.

  4. #74
    ozarugold is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    I find arguing about religion completely pointless. I'm not saying religion is pointless, but there really should be nothing to argue about.

    Why can't we all just get along?
    Are you happy? I am happy.

  5. #75
    Hanul is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozarugold View Post
    I find arguing about religion completely pointless. I'm not saying religion is pointless, but there really should be nothing to argue about.

    Why can't we all just get along?
    Because your god is wrong and mine is right. Because I need to save your soul. Because your beliefs are different from mine. Because your beliefs go against my beliefs.

    That is why.

    Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion
    —Steven Weinberg
    Last edited by Hanul; 07-18-2007 at 08:48 PM.

    Until one has given everything, one has given nothing.
    —Georges Guynemer

  6. #76
    silverwmoon is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    I'm not one to deny the evil organized religion has caused, but on the other hand it has also be able to move massive amounts of people to do good things.

    Fanatisms will occur weither there is religion or not. People will always look for an easy answer or a way to behave themselves, even something simply to justify their actions.

    I guess I just see Atheists or that way of life as jaded and without hope. To me, to live with hope and a sense of responsibility for your actions, (even through fear of punishment) is what religion brings to life. ( Yes I know, it can do evil things too, but it can do good things and often it's misused)

    Mostly I wish that people could understand the base of the religion, because at their heart, most religions are based around wonderful principles (most of the religions I have studied, if not all, so forgive me if I'm wrong).

    but yeah.. sorry if that didn't make any sense =/

  7. #77
    Hanul is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Yeah religion getting people to do good things...Here's my rebuttal, through the power of quotes:
    There was a time when religion ruled the world. It is known as the Dark Ages
    —Ruth Hurmence Green
    but on the other hand it has also be able to move massive amounts of people to do good things.
    I don't think the belief in God has very much to do with people's moral quality as people
    —Colin McGinn

    Science has done more for the devlopment of Western civilization in one hundred years than Christianity did in eighteen hundred
    —John Burroughs

    He who has made great moral progress ceases to pray
    —Immanuel Kant

    The bible teaches that a father may sell his daughter for a slave (Ex. xxi, 7), that he may sacrified her purity to a mob (Judges xix, 24), and that he may murder her, and still be a good father and a holy man. It teaches that a man may have any number of wives; that he may sell them, give them away, or change them around, and stil lbe a perfect gentleman, a good husband, a righteous man, and one of God's most intimate friends; and that is ap retty good position for a beginning
    —Helen H. Gardner

    We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another
    —Jonathan Swift
    I guess I just see Atheists or that way of life as jaded and without hope. To me, to live with hope and a sense of responsibility for your actions, (even through fear of punishment) is what religion brings to life. ( Yes I know, it can do evil things too, but it can do good things and often it's misused)
    The atheist, by merely being in touch with reality, appears shamefully out of touch with the fantasy life of his neighbors
    —Sam Harris

    I believe that our obligation is to make life better because it's our obligation to each other as human beings. Not in relation to eternal rewards and infernal punishments
    —Susan Jacoby

    The world is my country; to do good my religion.
    —Thomas Paine
    Mostly I wish that people could understand the base of the religion, because at their heart, most religions are based around wonderful principles (most of the religions I have studied, if not all, so forgive me if I'm wrong).
    Examine the religious principles which have, in fact, prevailed in the world. You will scarcely be persuaded that they are anthing but sick men's dreams
    —David Hume

    All your Western tehologies, the whole mythology of them, are based on the concept of God as a senile delinquent
    —Tennessee Williams

    The truths of religion are never so well understood as by those who have lost the power of reasoning
    —Voltaire

    What is it the Bible teaches us?-rapine, cruelty, and murder. What is it the Testament teaches us?-to believe that the Almighty commited debauchery with a woman engaged to be married, and the belief of this debauchery is called faith.
    —Thomas Paine

    If a man would follow, today, the teachings of the Old Testament he would be a criminal. If he would strictly follow the teachings of the New, he would be insane.
    —Robert G. Ingersoll

    I do have to say though. I help others to make this world better, not because there's some threat of bruning in a lake of fire for eternity(I thought god was kind and loved everyone?). I have a conscience you know, it's not like atheists don't have one.
    Atheists have hope in mankind and in a better world, not some afterlife.
    Last edited by Hanul; 07-18-2007 at 11:16 PM.

    Until one has given everything, one has given nothing.
    —Georges Guynemer

  8. #78
    silverwmoon is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another
    —Jonathan Swift

    That one.

    Perhaps I am weak willed or devoid of reason for my belief that this is not all there is. I would not however say this is true for all. At some point, the complexity of life does make me wonder how people could think it was created by chance...

    I understand Atheists have a concious, sometimes I wonder if christians aren't christians simply because they are too scared of themselves or don't trust their self-control without outside motivation.

  9. #79
    Saizou is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    I'll reply to silver without quotes, because I like to debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by silverwmoon View Post
    I'm not one to deny the evil organized religion has caused, but on the other hand it has also be able to move massive amounts of people to do good things.
    However you have to ask yourself if that good would have come about without religion. It's not as if religion has a monopoly on ethics, now is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by silverwmoon
    Fanatisms will occur weither there is religion or not. People will always look for an easy answer or a way to behave themselves, even something simply to justify their actions.
    The problem with fanaticism has its roots in the religious mindset. Because religion requires you to accept some things as true without any evidence people can believe that something which is evil really is good, and vice versa. Secodly, if you get someone to believe in an afterlife they can overcome their basic instinct of self-preservation, which means that you can get people who are willing to give their lives for an irrational belief (i.e. Fanatics).

    The problem here isn't really religion in itself, but the mindset that makes people accept religion. We can also examine extremist political ideologies and see that the same mindset is prevalent there. One of my favorite examples is dogmatic Marxism. Dogmatic Marxists essentially think that Marx was some sort of demi-god and that his writings are completely infallible, much like a fundametalist Christian believes that the Bible is infallible. The problem is that they both base this on faith, despite the fact that the marxist claims to be an Atheist.

    For fun, you can troll commies IRL by pointing this out.

    Quote Originally Posted by silverwmoon
    I guess I just see Atheists or that way of life as jaded and without hope. To me, to live with hope and a sense of responsibility for your actions, (even through fear of punishment) is what religion brings to life.
    Well, sorry to say this but life has no inherent meaning other than the biological desire to reproduce. That means that you have to create that meaning yourself, whether it's to live for yourself or help your fellow man.

    However, by following a religion you let someoe else determine that meaning for you. It's easier that way, but only in the sense that you don't need to think for yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by silverwmoon
    Mostly I wish that people could understand the base of the religion, because at their heart, most religions are based around wonderful principles (most of the religions I have studied, if not all, so forgive me if I'm wrong).
    The problem that Atheists (or at least I) have with religion isn't always the message or principles, rather it's the irrationality of religion. I can agree with much of the content of the Bible, especially with much of the teachings of Jesus (in fact, I consider Jesus to be an excellent moral philosopher), but the fact remains that religious morality is essentialy arbitrary, and that is something I cannot accept in a moral code.

    I believe that people tend to misunderstand why Atheists dislike religion. It's not always because we don't like the message, but rather because the message isn't based on reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by silverwmoon
    Perhaps I am weak willed or devoid of reason for my belief that this is not all there is. I would not however say this is true for all. At some point, the complexity of life does make me wonder how people could think it was created by chance...
    Actually, it's very logical once you grasp the proper scale on things. Imagine that there are, say ten billion planets in the universe (and this is a far too low number). After that, imagine that there is a one in a billion chance that life will arise on any given planet. One in a billion odds are enormously improbable, right?

    And yet, because we have ten billion planets, it's reasonable to assume that life will arise on about ten planets. Thus, given the enormous scale of the universe the existance of life is not improbable at all. In fact, the chance that life won't arise on at least one planet is far more improbable.

 

 
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