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  1. #51
    Dante Obscuri is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by child_of_serenity View Post
    No, I disagree with you Dante that isn't what Jakko is saying at all. You are not nonexistent in hell, you just exist with out being in god.
    Existing outside from the meaning of (or what theistic people consider to be) existence, wouldn't count as being non-existent? It's like being, but not being at the same time, I suppose. Quite ambiguous, but that was what I understood from Jakko's words. You may exist in Hell, but existence is devoid from its meaning (in this case, God); therefore, it would be like not existing at all.


  2. #52
    child_of_serenity's Avatar
    child_of_serenity is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    But not existing at all is a relief it isn't very hellish.

  3. #53
    Dante Obscuri is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Look at people that are alive. They kill themselves when they think that their lives have no meaning. When people think that way, they are in despair, they are full of sadness and sorrow. Even so, they just think that their lives have no meaning, it is not as if their lives, actually, have no meaning. Now, take the meaning of their lives for real. What would you get? A life with not purpose at all, you would get nothing, you'd be nothing. Nothing would matter, nothing would make sense, nothing would be worth. Existing wouldn't be worth. Actually, since your existence would have lost its meaning, yours cannot wouldn't be able to be labeled as an existence anymore. You would be nothing, meant to do nothing. You would exist, but you wouldn't. There would be no reason to exist, but you would not be able to help it. You would be bound to be an eternal non-existence. You would be bound to be meaningless, miserable. I think that's what Jakko meant, with Hell.


  4. #54
    child_of_serenity's Avatar
    child_of_serenity is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Even so being bound forever with god isn't much better, because you are just a part of a greater whole you are a slave to something that is not yourself, and you are bound to it for all eternity. Even though you are not alone and you have a purpose, I think that it is natural that people would reject it, but I guess these people would be cast out anyway.

    I think my point is that you can't take humanity out of the afterlife. That you if think that humanity will stop being what it is even when it reaches... heaven. Then we are no longer talking about humanity, about our souls, our being, going on.

    I find an overlying theme of finding perfection, finding the perfect you, that when you get into heaven that you are a new person. Which, ok, I get the act of physically dying would change a person, but how much, and what makes up you how much of you would change. Can you really be this changed person.

    Gah, it's all garbled. I think I need a nap.

  5. #55
    Saizou is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    I have a question to the people who believe in Heaven and Hell.

    Have you ever considerd the ethical implications of an eternal punishment? When some sick fuck tortures people to death we condemn him as an evil bastard, but if hell exists, your God actually does something that is even more monstrous.
    Have you considered that condemning someone to a fate quite literally worse than death, and which continues for all eternity would in fact be the most evil act possible?

  6. #56
    adonai is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    ^ I'd imagine that it wouldn't be too different from non-existence.

    Non-existence is defined by the absence of change (time doesn't exist).

    Hell would be an eternity of some sort of suffering (what it is exactly doesn't seem to be agreed upon by everyone in this thread). If there's no form of contrast within that existence, it would be pretty much like non-existence.

    And even if it's not the case, eternal torture has to eventually cause some sort of mental state that would shield the individual from the pain (insanity of some sort), in which case (in my opinion at least) that individual would cease to exist anyways, once the mind is destroyed, what's there left to define to define that person as a sentient being anyways?

  7. #57
    Popothepenguin is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    @c o serenity: Heaven is not stated biblically to be bound by God, but on a new Earth made as God intended before the fall into sin. There would still be individuality but there would be no more hatred, sin, or everything else that is bad in the world.

    @Saizou: Basically it's a matter of choosing to be with God. People's actions condemn themselves, but Christian's believe that Christ has set us free from being 'slaves to sin' and made us right with him. God is also not the ruler of Hell. With damnation, you are basically in the hands of Satan, and will be a slave to him til Jesus comes in his second coming, where Satan and Hell will be no more. God doesn't do the punishment.

    @adonai: The Christian mentality on this is that it isn't your mind that would be tortured, but your soul, and in the second coming, it will probably be destroyed. So, whatever.

  8. #58
    Saizou is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Quote Originally Posted by adonai View Post
    ^ I'd imagine that it wouldn't be too different from non-existence.

    Non-existence is defined by the absence of change (time doesn't exist).
    Actually, what we would consider to be non-existence after death would be the absence of sentience.

    Quote Originally Posted by adonai
    Hell would be an eternity of some sort of suffering (what it is exactly doesn't seem to be agreed upon by everyone in this thread). If there's no form of contrast within that existence, it would be pretty much like non-existence.

    And even if it's not the case, eternal torture has to eventually cause some sort of mental state that would shield the individual from the pain (insanity of some sort), in which case (in my opinion at least) that individual would cease to exist anyways, once the mind is destroyed, what's there left to define to define that person as a sentient being anyways?
    I doubt that your mind would cease to exist. The point of hell is that it's a punishment, right? Thus, it is illogical to assume that there exists a cop-out.

    And even if you become mad, that's not much better. You'll still suffer, but you'll be insane as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Popothepenguin
    @Saizou: Basically it's a matter of choosing to be with God. People's actions condemn themselves, but Christian's believe that Christ has set us free from being 'slaves to sin' and made us right with him. God is also not the ruler of Hell. With damnation, you are basically in the hands of Satan, and will be a slave to him til Jesus comes in his second coming, where Satan and Hell will be no more. God doesn't do the punishment.
    An common, but fallacious, argument. The fact that God doesn't torture you personally isn't very relevant if he has somebody else to do it for him, now is it? It is made clear in the Bible that Satan is some sort of henchman to God, given that God is supposed to be omnipotent, and that everything is supposed to exist according to his will. After all, it's God that made the rules, isn't it?
    If you require further proof, go read the book of Job.

  9. #59
    child_of_serenity's Avatar
    child_of_serenity is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    I agree with Saizou, God is pretty much an evil bastard.

  10. #60
    Saizou is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Quote Originally Posted by child_of_serenity View Post
    I agree with Saizou, God is pretty much an evil bastard.
    Actually, I find this the only reasonable conclusion if you read the Bible literally. The book of Job is the clearest example that the christian god is a spectacular dick.

 

 
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