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  1. #21
    adonai is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakko
    I never said gays were bad people. I never said that they did bad things. I said that what they are trying to do to America(destroy the institution of marraige, for example. You want "civil unions?" Have at it, but marraige is a religious thing, not a civil.).
    That's the same reason I don't believe in gay marriage actually.

    Marriage is a social institution that's defined as a different thing in many different cultures (generally for reasons of population control and procreation, which doesn't really apply to homosexuals), the problem is that in the US there's legislation tied to it as well. There shouldn't be any laws defining something like marriage.

    Still there's several severe logical flaws in his statements, why was the US chosen as a target if there are other countries that are much more liberal? According to Bin Laden's own statements it's because of the American military prescience in Saudi Arabia and the US support of the state of Israel. According to this, the greatest "fault" would lie would people who support the stationing troops in Saudi Arabia (I don't think is an issue that most people really cared or knew about), or those who were proponents of the US's support of Israel, such as Falwell himself. Another problem with his statements is that it implies that we should let terrorist acts dictate what we do, if we live like that, then they're already won.

  2. #22
    StealthMoose is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakko View Post
    I met the guy, once, had a long talk with him, when I visited Liberty university. He was actually a really good guy. Trouble was, whenever he opened his mouth in front of a mic, he said the worst thing possible. I am speaking from experience, he was a good guy, with a bad habit of making a fool of himself.

    Dude, I'm sure he was a really pleasant and nice guy to you. Fortunately you belonged to the right group of people. I doubt he would have been as nice to someone less fortunate..

    Quote Originally Posted by Jakko View Post
    You see, you, yourself, are the problem. For some reason, people like to confuse what someone "said" with what hides in their deepest, darkest prejudices about those people.

    I never said gays were bad people. I never said that they did bad things. I said that what they are trying to do to America(destroy the institution of marraige, for example. You want "civil unions?" Have at it, but marraige is a religious thing, not a civil.). Are they bad people for trying to destroy the social framework of America that it is built upon, and remake it in their image? No, but that does not mean that it is a good thing, either. And I find the fact that anyone that disagrees with this being considered a bigot, itself, a form of bigotry(and the worse kind, as well, one tempered by arrogance and a feeling of moral superiority). In other words, I am saying you are doing exactly what you think is wrong in Fallwell.

    Another way to say this, is that you are being a "dick that preaches hate."
    Without wanting to spiral into another ceaseless debate about gay marriage, would it then be alright with you (bear in mind I don't really know how it works in America so it's more than possible I'm assuming things in error) if Christian marriage remained only for heterosexual couples, but state sanctioned marriage between consenting couples of whatever sexuality became the predominantly recognised form of marriage for the country? By this I mean a state marriage would confer whatever benefits a couple get from marriage etc, as opposed to a specifically christian marriage.

  3. #23
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    98abaile is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakko View Post
    Here's what he said:
    That's pretty true. The terrorists attacked America because they hate it. Why? Partly because we support Israel, but also partly because these things seems a huge threat, a evil blight, to the more extreme elements of Islam, that could destroy their way of life, their traditions, societies, morals. I can't say that I disagree with them(note: No, I am not saying that gays and lesbians are bad, but that what they are trying to do to America is bad).

    So yeah, I call you out for "Bullsh*t. Burn."
    So why didn't they crash a plane into the UN building in Brussels or the Eiffel tower in France? According to extreme right wing republicans, Europe is full of gays and abortionists.
    The real reason they crashed a plane in the the WTC was political. Most "terrorists" see America as the biggest threat to their life and religion due to its political dominance and economic might, they also see America as gung ho and wasteful (in the same way much of the rest of the world views America). I'm betting that they attacked the WTC because to them it represents America's economic power in the world.

    Also, I'm guessing that they see America as a threat due to its large Christian population and Christian government. So its kind of ironic how a Christian such as Falwell who meddles in politics and is trying to spread Christian values across America, is blaming another group of people for what was essentially an attack in a holy war.

    Also, just because some people are gay/lesbian/feminist don't want to bring a child into the world, doesn't mean that they can't believe in God/go to church/have good morals. Similarly just because pagans don't believe in Christianity, doesn't mean that they are bad and/or morally corrupt people. For him to attack all these people and to throw slander at them because disagrees with their views and thinks that they are non-Christian/immoral, does not make him right, nor does it make him morally superior, it just makes him an arsehole.

    Also, him using politics to further his agenda and to force his beliefs upon others, to me symbolises almost everything that is wrong with Christian America (particularly the "I'm right, everyone else is wrong; do what I say or you'll go to hell" mentality).

    Also, you say America is built on morals, but as I understood things, America was built on freedom; two of which are freedom of speech and freedom to choose ones own religion, both of which he infringes upon.

    So yeah, this guy is a major arsehole and political scum. The world is a better place without his kind fouling up progress and fanning the flames of moral and religious elitism.

  4. #24
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    Jakko is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by adonai View Post
    That's the same reason I don't believe in gay marriage actually.

    Marriage is a social institution that's defined as a different thing in many different cultures (generally for reasons of population control and procreation, which doesn't really apply to homosexuals), the problem is that in the US there's legislation tied to it as well. There shouldn't be any laws defining something like marriage.

    Still there's several severe logical flaws in his statements, why was the US chosen as a target if there are other countries that are much more liberal? According to Bin Laden's own statements it's because of the American military prescience in Saudi Arabia and the US support of the state of Israel. According to this, the greatest "fault" would lie would people who support the stationing troops in Saudi Arabia (I don't think is an issue that most people really cared or knew about), or those who were proponents of the US's support of Israel, such as Falwell himself. Another problem with his statements is that it implies that we should let terrorist acts dictate what we do, if we live like that, then they're already won.
    Well, as I said, it was "part." Sure, there are other countries much more secular than the US. But not any that have as powerful a media(in my opinion) that can affect the middle eastern countries(Baywatch is a classic example), or one that supports Israel militarily and, as you said, had bases in Saudia Arabia(which I had always thought we should remove, it sullies our nation to support the despots that the Saudi royal family have become).

    Quote Originally Posted by StealthMoose View Post
    Dude, I'm sure he was a really pleasant and nice guy to you. Fortunately you belonged to the right group of people. I doubt he would have been as nice to someone less fortunate..
    Actually, being a foolish junior, I think I was rather combative and rude, and, I am ashamed to say, somewhat liberal in my views. Fear not, I was cured of that somewhat later. He was still a gentleman, and I regret that I can not speak to him as I am now...


    Quote Originally Posted by StealthMoose View Post
    Without wanting to spiral into another ceaseless debate about gay marriage, would it then be alright with you (bear in mind I don't really know how it works in America so it's more than possible I'm assuming things in error) if Christian marriage remained only for heterosexual couples, but state sanctioned marriage between consenting couples of whatever sexuality became the predominantly recognised form of marriage for the country? By this I mean a state marriage would confer whatever benefits a couple get from marriage etc, as opposed to a specifically christian marriage.
    Actually, I would rather the institution of marriage be removed completely from governmental legislation. Let marriage be a matter for the church(or synagogue, mosque, etc.), and only let the government deal with "civil unions." That is what I would prefer.

    Quote Originally Posted by 98abaile View Post
    So why didn't they crash a plane into the UN building in Brussels or the Eiffel tower in France? According to extreme right wing republicans, Europe is full of gays and abortionists.
    The real reason they crashed a plane in the the WTC was political. Most "terrorists" see America as the biggest threat to their life and religion due to its political dominance and economic might, they also see America as gung ho and wasteful (in the same way much of the rest of the world views America). I'm betting that they attacked the WTC because to them it represents America's economic power in the world.

    Also, I'm guessing that they see America as a threat due to its large Christian population and Christian government. So its kind of ironic how a Christian such as Falwell who meddles in politics and is trying to spread Christian values across America, is blaming another group of people for what was essentially an attack in a holy war.

    Also, just because some people are gay/lesbian/feminist don't want to bring a child into the world, doesn't mean that they can't believe in God/go to church/have good morals. Similarly just because pagans don't believe in Christianity, doesn't mean that they are bad and/or morally corrupt people. For him to attack all these people and to throw slander at them because disagrees with their views and thinks that they are non-Christian/immoral, does not make him right, nor does it make him morally superior, it just makes him an arsehole.

    Also, him using politics to further his agenda and to force his beliefs upon others, to me symbolises almost everything that is wrong with Christian America (particularly the "I'm right, everyone else is wrong; do what I say or you'll go to hell" mentality).

    Also, you say America is built on morals, but as I understood things, America was built on freedom; two of which are freedom of speech and freedom to choose ones own religion, both of which he infringes upon.

    So yeah, this guy is a major arsehole and political scum. The world is a better place without his kind fouling up progress and fanning the flames of moral and religious elitism.
    No, if you look at American history, it was built on morals(and tobacco farming), the freedom came later. He also infringes on neither freedom of speech or religion, by the way. I won't get into your post, mainly because it is a impassioned rant that veer's off the facts shortly after the first sentence, however, most of this has already been covered, in, I think, a more coherent manner by Stealthmoose and adonai.

  5. #25
    98abaile's Avatar
    98abaile is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakko View Post
    I won't get into your post, mainly because it is a impassioned rant that veer's off the facts shortly after the first sentence, however, most of this has already been covered, in, I think, a more coherent manner by Stealthmoose and adonai.
    WTH! I countered one of your arguments and gave my reason why I dislike the guy. Dissect and counter my post, rip it to pieces if you have to, but don't insult me!

  6. #26
    Jakko's Avatar
    Jakko is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by 98abaile View Post
    WTH! I countered one of your arguments and gave my reason why I dislike the guy. Dissect and counter my post, rip it to pieces if you have to, but don't insult me!
    =p
    It was a joke, dude. =p

    People these days have no sense of humor...you'd think they'd realize it was so sarcasm laden that it couldn't be serious....=3

    Also, as I said, all your points(from what I could tell), were brought up by adonai or steathlmoose, and there seems little point in repeating....

    ...Also, for you:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDGoBitd1vY

  7. #27
    Henchy432 is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakko View Post
    You see, you, yourself, are the problem. For some reason, people like to confuse what someone "said" with what hides in their deepest, darkest prejudices about those people.
    I am sorry, I think you are wrong about that. Falwell spoke nothing but hate about those who where not christian.

    I never said gays were bad people. I never said that they did bad things. I said that what they are trying to do to America(destroy the institution of marraige, for example. You want "civil unions?" Have at it, but marraige is a religious thing, not a civil.).
    Meanwhile, Britney Spears can get married at the drop of a dime. How is that helping America? I think civil union are good enough for any one.

    Are they bad people for trying to destroy the social framework of America that it is built upon, and remake it in their image? No, but that does not mean that it is a good thing, either. And I find the fact that anyone that disagrees with this being considered a bigot, itself, a form of bigotry(and the worse kind, as well, one tempered by arrogance and a feeling of moral superiority). In other words, I am saying you are doing exactly what you think is wrong in Fallwell.

    Another way to say this, is that you are being a "dick that preaches hate."
    I don't have a show where I tell people they are going to hell, because they love someone of the same sex.

  8. #28
    StealthMoose is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakko View Post
    Actually, I would rather the institution of marriage be removed completely from governmental legislation. Let marriage be a matter for the church(or synagogue, mosque, etc.), and only let the government deal with "civil unions." That is what I would prefer.
    I think you might be missing my point. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't civil unions seen as some kind of knock-off version of marriage, you know, not quite the real deal ? What I'm suggesting, is making secular, state sanctioned marriage the de facto mode of marrying a couple (regardless of sexuality) and have christian marriage in all its historical form as an option for people if they choose to do it. Kind of reversing the roles of civil unions and modern marriage if you will, but allowing christians to keep their protocols and whatnot in place as they like it, if you see what I mean ?

  9. #29
    Jakko's Avatar
    Jakko is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henchy432 View Post
    I am sorry, I think you are wrong about that. Falwell spoke nothing but hate about those who where not christian.
    Meanwhile, you talk of nothing but hate for people like him, even those that have similar, but less extreme, views.

    Quote Originally Posted by Henchy432 View Post
    Meanwhile, Britney Spears can get married at the drop of a dime. How is that helping America? I think civil union are good enough for any one.
    You seem to be missing a pertinent comment. Where was it? Let me see....here:
    Actually, I would rather the institution of marriage be removed completely from governmental legislation. Let marriage be a matter for the church(or synagogue, mosque, etc.), and only let the government deal with "civil unions." That is what I would prefer.
    And:
    I never said gays were bad people. I never said that they did bad things. I said that what they are trying to do to America(destroy the institution of marraige, for example. You want "civil unions?" Have at it, but marraige is a religious thing, not a civil.). Are they bad people for trying to destroy the social framework of America that it is built upon, and remake it in their image? No, but that does not mean that it is a good thing, either. And I find the fact that anyone that disagrees with this being considered a bigot, itself, a form of bigotry(and the worse kind, as well, one tempered by arrogance and a feeling of moral superiority). In other words, I am saying you are doing exactly what you think is wrong in Fallwell.
    Quote Originally Posted by Henchy432 View Post
    I don't have a show where I tell people they are going to hell, because they love someone of the same sex.
    Neither did he. He didn't have a TV Show.

    This is exactly what I am talking about, you spew out things, your "feelings," without knowing any actual facts.



    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthmoose
    I think you might be missing my point. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't civil unions seen as some kind of knock-off version of marriage, you know, not quite the real deal ? What I'm suggesting, is making secular, state sanctioned marriage the de facto mode of marrying a couple (regardless of sexuality) and have christian marriage in all its historical form as an option for people if they choose to do it. Kind of reversing the roles of civil unions and modern marriage if you will, but allowing christians to keep their protocols and whatnot in place as they like it, if you see what I mean ?
    A "civil union," is a legally recognized act. A "marraige" is a religious service and a religious act. You seem to be missing the point. They are two separate things, and, with the separation of church and state, the government should have no part in it. It is a religious act, if the church/temple/synagogue/mosque wants to preform a marraige, it is there responsibility, not the governments. It doesn't matter how much a same-sex couple wants it, the government has no right to push for it, it is up to the church.

  10. #30
    Saizou is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    I feel like I must respond to a few things Jakko said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jakko View Post
    I never said gays were bad people. I never said that they did bad things. I said that what they are trying to do to America(destroy the institution of marraige, for example. You want "civil unions?" Have at it, but marraige is a religious thing, not a civil.). Are they bad people for trying to destroy the social framework of America that it is built upon, and remake it in their image? No, but that does not mean that it is a good thing, either.
    Before you bring religion into the debate, remember that the law considers marriage a secular contract. After all, atheists are allowed to marry, are they not? Naturally this means that the principle of equality before the law immediately applies, which makes the argument that gay people shouldn't be allowed to marry bigoted in the extreme.

    Also, I've never understood the concept of "civil unions". Seriously, that's simply marriage, but under a different name. What's the purpose of giving two names to the exact same thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jakko
    Well, as I said, it was "part." Sure, there are other countries much more secular than the US. But not any that have as powerful a media(in my opinion) that can affect the middle eastern countries(Baywatch is a classic example), or one that supports Israel militarily and, as you said, had bases in Saudia Arabia(which I had always thought we should remove, it sullies our nation to support the despots that the Saudi royal family have become).
    The people that Falwell blame for 9/11 are a drop in the ocean. Any "part" that they play in fostring resentment among the people in the middle east is negligible compared to the US support of Israel, US meddling in the region and the generally shitty living standards in the middle east. And yet, Falwell chooses to blame the people that he doesn't approve of of causing 9/11. I see this as a textbook example of bigotry. Do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jakko
    No, if you look at American history, it was built on morals(and tobacco farming), the freedom came later. He also infringes on neither freedom of speech or religion, by the way.
    I'd say that the difference between the legal status of freedom and christian morals in the US is that one of these is mentioned in the US Constitution, while the other is not.

 

 
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