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  1. #101
    98abaile's Avatar
    98abaile is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    I don't think it can be proved or disproved, there are too man other factors that can be attributed to higher crime rates.

  2. #102
    glass_eye is offline Member Newbie
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    You acknowledge that people who break the law would have access to significantly more powerful weapons, that it cannot be proven that restrictions would affect crime, and that they might even increase crime.
    Despite this, you would like to disarm law-abiding citizens of non-singleshot weapons.

    I have to give up arguing, our base beliefs vis a vis freedom and self-defense are just too far apart.

  3. #103
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    cpr
    cpr is offline Super Moderator Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordfish II View Post
    Wow. You have so many misconceptions here in your statements about concealed carry by private citizens, it's hard to know where to begin.

    Emotional rhetoric aside, it is a proven fact that allowing private citizens to carry firearms for their own defense and the defense of others reduces crime in those areas. I have previously posted the results of 20 years of CCW here in Florida. That's fact, from the FDLE (Florida Department of Law Enforcement). Conversely, the USDOJ's (That's United States Department of Justice) own statistics show that gun bans have no measurable effect on crime.
    Well, I can't exactly contest statistics...

    but, let's remember our audience we're talking about.

    We're talking about 18-22 year olds, who are generally irrational people between Friday thru Saturday. This is mostly because they are partying and getting drunk.

    Do we really want these spontaneous people to be able to possess guns on campus???

    Many times when people are drunk, the fights consists of just punches and people can walk away alive. Occasionally, weapons such as knives are used.

    Let's not give them the option of having guns as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordfish II
    While it's typical to start yelling "Let's ban all the guns!", besides being akin to attempting to bottle the sun, all you are doing is further enabling the criminal element. In fact, which you are allowing is letting criminals define the rights allowed the law-abiding. And non-gunowners also benefit, since criminals can't readily tell who is armed and who is not, making their job more difficult. Do you think for a minute if someone's already got their mind set on the *big ticket*, that is, homicide, they are going to worry one second about their guns being legal or not? Not in a million years.

    If banning guns would fix these problems, I'd be the first in line clamoring for it. But it's not the solution. If only it was that simple.

    By the way, both the guns the bad guy had were purchased black market, a problem seen in other western nations with much more draconian bans on guns than the U.S., like the UK and Australia. With this approach, all you are doing is hanging an "I'm an unarmed victim" sign on each and every person. "War Zone?" No. But once in a while shit goes down and doesn't come back up, and the potential victim is the first person "on scene". If they are not properly prepared, things go bad for them, like at VA Tech.
    Hey,

    there's other solutions to try and protect the average citizen.

    I wonder if Vtech has the "emergency police call box" system in place. Mine does, and I know some other schools that I toured had them as well. (ex: Columbia has them, and because of them they are the 2nd safest place in NYC... 2nd only to Central Park cause nobody friggin lives in Central Park. XD ) UPENN has them as well.

    Do other colleges have it?

    They look like this:

    There's an installed camera and by pressing one button you get direct contact to the police.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordfish II
    Obviously, not everyone is going to be armed -- it would be unusual for more than one person every few classrooms to be armed. But that would be sufficient if the bearer was ready, willing and able to take on Mr. Psycho. There have been several instances where armed resistance put a short end to this sort of event, something our media doesn't like to mention.
    And there are many other incidents where a gun in the hand of a civilian "accidentally" kills people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordfish II
    Your last statement about "It's the police's job to make the campus safe. That's what they're paid for!" ...This is not even close to true, and if you don't believe me, ask a cop. Every state in the U.S. has laws specifically stating that it is NOT the task of police to guarantee safety to each and every individual -- they are there to protect the "general welfare", and if that means they get there too late to save you, that's too bad. And think about it, that makes sense, because if the police were beholden to save every person, they'd be getting sued right and left every time they failed in this, which happens daily. Most of the time, cops get to play historian by the time they get on-scene, as they merely pick up the pieces.

    Do not put words in my mouth.


    You are arguing a point I never mentioned.

    I never said that they must guarantee the safety of everyone.

    Hell, that would be near impossible.

    What I said "It's the police's job to make the campus safe. That's what they're paid for!" is true.

    If it was false [which you are arguing], that would mean "The police's job is not to make the campus safe." This would contradict many college's police's mission statement as shown below.

    Here's my college's police mission statement: "The Police Department works to develop and maintain positive relationships with all members of the College Community. One of our prime objectives is to assure the safety of all University students, faculty, staff, and visitors. To this endeavor, we become partners with the University in protecting its assets, as well as maintaining an environment that is secure so as to foster and advance the process of learning."

  4. #104
    Terasiel is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Just to put yet another odd rift with a ST member who's seniority dwarfs mind, I'm sorry, but I too believe that basic firearms should be accessable by the average citizen. Single shots, small calibre, long waiting limit, and background checks a must.

    Still, ~30-40 out of 11,000 in two hours...seems kinda small for a "massacre."

  5. #105
    Swordfish II is offline Senior Member Frequent Poster
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    coolpuprocks,

    I hear what you're saying about 18-22 year-olds; I was one myself. But that goes right back to my previous comments about individual responsibility and moral character. You're right -- if people have no capacity for self-control, they need to be limited. That's what background checks are for; anyone who's bought a gun can tell you about those, and they are quite effective. But that itself is no guarantee, and the process flies in the face of the concept of "innocent until presumed guilty".

    The Vtech "emergency police call box" system looks interesting; I don't know who is using them. Even so, with the average response time to 911 calls being at least 7-8 minutes, and the average violent altercation typically being about 5 (again, Federal DOJ stats), all the police would be able to do for you is draw one of those chalk outlines on the ground.

    Despite your protestations about me putting words in your mouth (which I did not intend to do, by the way), you are actually reinforcing my argument that ultimately, in the final accounting, the government and it's agents consider you *expendable*. If you're one of the victims they can't save, oh well. I personally can not and will not accept that, since if I operated along those lines I'd already be crippled or dead a couple of times over. That particular dose of reality has formed my worldview on this matter more than anything else.

    Please note that those politicians and media elites who cry for the common man to give up his right of self-defense are themselves well-protected, in gated communities, bodyguards (often our tax dollars at work), etc. Are these men armed? You betcha. There is no honor in "do as I say, not as I do".

    Simply because someone is a peaceful, law-abiding citizen does not mandate that they be food for predators.

  6. #106
    Ishman is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Damn, I hadn't realized just how fast the fucker is.
    Good thing he's pretty damn stupid.

    Dissection of Mr. Thompson's lies.

    Oh, and Dr. Phil jumped on the blame video games bandwaggon too.

  7. #107
    crazydiamond is offline Senior Member Well Known
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    arguing about gun control with american citizens will not yiled anything, they LOVE their guns to death, it is apparently their right to have guns since it is written in the ammendent although it was written ages ago for (I assume) a good reason back then.

    i think arming people just to "protect yourself from fear" is quite stupid, its not like you live in a war zone, what cpr said is true, thats the duty of the police.

    are there gun crimes in australia?? of course there is, just take a look at melbourne, but what you have to realize is that the big one that makes headlines are carried out by crime syndicate, there's the occasional hold up at the patrol station by some low level thugs with guns in sydney, but really chances that you're going to get shot because of standard crime (robbery etc) is next to nothing, unless you're very unfortunate and happens to be in the same restaurant with the mafia boss they want to kill (happens in melbourne couple of years ago, there might be civilians killed can't remember)

    you guys (gun loving people, not just americans) can say whatever you want about gun control wont work etc.....the fact i want to point out is this:
    there's no gun massacre here in australia (not since ages ago), crime involving guns are quite low (depend on the city, even the worst city is like sydney or melbourne is very safe), there's nobody died every single day because of guns let it be accident or not.
    we all know that nobody owns guns and therefore we dont need to own one to protect ourself. do we need to protect ourself? of course we do, but not with guns.

  8. #108
    StealDragon's Avatar
    StealDragon is offline Super Moderator Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ishman View Post
    Damn, I hadn't realized just how fast the fucker is.
    Good thing he's pretty damn stupid.

    Dissection of Mr. Thompson's lies.

    Oh, and Dr. Phil jumped on the blame video games bandwaggon too.
    I hate those 2 men so much I could puke.

    Whats really interesting to me is that here in NYC where our charismatic leader Michael Bloomberg and all the newspapers are all "Whaddaya say now bitches!" because Virginia is the number one supplier of guns used in crimes in NYC (at least according to the editorial in which at one point 47% of all guns used in crimes in NYC were from Virginia), and when our mayor went on his spree of suing Virginia gun stores for selling guns illegally or improperly, Virginia said whatever and that its an American right to own guns and that "Guns dont kill people, people kill people"... so now that its on their gun loving home soil ithe irony is fantastic.


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    I raise a toast to the the souls that sang all along. I've been gathering friends to just to make some sounds,
    before the ship goes down, I've been making amends by making the rounds before the whole world ends


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  9. #109
    AKofC is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    So the University didn't have any security cams or anything? It would have made finding the guy easier.

  10. #110
    Ishman is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    University's have security cams?

    ... Damn, if they tried to put cams on the LSU campus, they'd have to hire a fucking armada to watch the cameras.

 

 
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