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Thread: For the world?

  1. #21
    coolerimmortal is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakko View Post
    Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot said the same thing.
    I'm not them.

    The damage caused by religion throughout history makes every other force pale in comparison. Removing it would improve the world, methinks. Tolerance would increase, the entire War on Terror would end, etc.

  2. #22
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    child_of_serenity is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Quote Originally Posted by coolerimmortal View Post
    I'm not them.

    The damage caused by religion throughout history makes every other force pale in comparison. Removing it would improve the world, methinks. Tolerance would increase, the entire War on Terror would end, etc.
    I mean if there wasn't religion we wouldn't have had the holocausts.

  3. #23
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    Jakko is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by coolerimmortal View Post
    I'm not them.

    The damage caused by religion throughout history makes every other force pale in comparison. Removing it would improve the world, methinks. Tolerance would increase, the entire War on Terror would end, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Child_of_Serenity
    I mean if there wasn't religion we wouldn't have had the holocausts.
    And? What exactly is it that seperates "you" from "them." I am sure that we they were your age, they did not say, "I'm gonna grow up and kill millions of people."

    Let us look at a famous historical figure, Adolf Hitler, specifically his religious beliefs(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_H...igious_beliefs):

    Adolf Hitler was brought up in his family's religion by his Roman Catholic parents, but as a school boy he began to reject the Church and Catholicism. After he had left home, he never attended Mass or received the Sacraments.
    In later life, Hitler's religious beliefs present a discrepant picture: In public statements, he frequently spoke positively about the Christian heritage of German culture and belief in Christ. Hitler’s private statements, reported by his intimates, are more mixed, showing Hitler as a religious man but also critical of Christianity. However, in contrast to other Nazi leaders, Hitler did not adhere to esoteric ideas, occultism, or neo-paganism, and ridiculed such beliefs in his book Mein Kampf. Rather, Hitler advocated a "Positive Christianity", a belief system purged from what he objected to in traditional Christianity, and reinvented Jesus as a fighter against the Jews.[citation needed]
    Hitler believed in a Social Darwinist struggle for survival between the different races, among which the "Aryan race" - guided by "Providence" - was supposed to be the torchbearers of civilization and the Jews as enemies of all civilization. Whether his anti-semitism was influenced by older Christian ideas remains disputed.
    Among Christian denominations, Hitler favoured Protestantism, which was more open to such reinterpretations. At the same time, he made use of some elements of the Catholic Church's hierarchical organisation, liturgy and phraseology in his politics.

    So, lets take some of those major points, shall we?:
    1. Former Christian, rejected his Christian heritage.
    2. Social Darwinist
    3. Against many traditional aspects of the Christian Church, pushed for a new, different form of Christianity.

    ..Sounds a lot like you, actually, Cooler.

    One must take care when judging monsters, for it is all too easy to become one yourself.

    Face it, while religion has faults, and can lead people to do horrible things, it also leads people to do great and wonderful things, and to new heights of humanity, compassion, and understanding. Religion is not the problem, the problem is human nature and its tendancy towards evil.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    And now to Serenity. CoS, you know I love you to death, but your comment was just plain stupid.

    If you look at the "Holocaust," it has very little, if anything, to do with religion. Mainly, it had to do with anti-semitism, and white supremacy, which has relations with religion, but also many relations with atheism(for example, high ranking Nazi atheists Baldur von Schirach, Arthur Axmann and Martin Bormann) and science(had roots in the "Nordic Theory," which in turn was related to the "Social Darwinist Theory"). It is just ignorant to lay the blame of the "Holocaust" on religion(it is also ignorant to lay the blame on atheism and science), the blame squarely falls on human nature and the tendancy towards evil(specifically racism and bigotry, in particular Anti-Semitism, which, though influence in some ways by religion, is not the fault of religion).

    Also, if by "holocausts" you mean "purges," then, well, your idea completely falls apart. The greatest "purges" in history, Antiochus Epiphanes III, Stalin's purges, Mao's purges, and Pol Pot's purges, none of those had ANYTHING to do with religion. In fact, many of those were directed against religion. If you tally up all the numbers, it is the lack of relgion and those that operate with it, not religion, that has killed more people.

    Granted, religion has had more time to do it, and people killed hundreds of years ago should count for more, as the amount of progeny they would have been able to produce must be taken into account, however, the sheer number of people killed by those in the last century alone, who are against religion boggles the mind. In summation, it is ignorant to lay the blame on the feet of "religion," when such a basic thing as "human nature," desire, anger, hate, greed, bigotry and pride are being overlooked. The blame lays not with religion, but, to quote Edgar Allen Poe, "Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of man?"

  4. #24
    coolerimmortal is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakko View Post
    And? What exactly is it that seperates "you" from "them." I am sure that we they were your age, they did not say, "I'm gonna grow up and kill millions of people."
    I'm not saying I won't grow up to become a monster. I'm just saying I'm not them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jakko View Post
    So, lets take some of those major points, shall we?:
    1. Former Christian, rejected his Christian heritage.
    2. Social Darwinist
    3. Against many traditional aspects of the Christian Church, pushed for a new, different form of Christianity.

    ..Sounds a lot like you, actually, Cooler.
    Those three points, yes, he and I are the same. The big difference here is that, while Hitler wanted to eradicate people in order to create the perfect race, I realize that such activity is idiocy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jakko View Post
    One must take care when judging monsters, for it is all too easy to become one yourself.
    Oh, I know. There's a good reason why my own mother said I was exactly like Light Yagami after she read the first volume of Death Note.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jakko View Post
    Face it, while religion has faults, and can lead people to do horrible things, it also leads people to do great and wonderful things, and to new heights of humanity, compassion, and understanding. Religion is not the problem, the problem is human nature and its tendancy towards evil.
    It's tainted fruit, though. Great good has come from it, but at the cost of great evil. I'd take out the whole tree...we'd lose the good, but consider the evil that would be lost.

    Regarding the Holocaust, Christianity was used as a tool by Hitler in order to gain support. Through Christianity, he was able to bring about the Holocaust. No Christianity, no Holocaust.

    I apologize for any offense I may have caused...I have great respect for you, as I hope you know.

  5. #25
    TreeHugger340 is offline Banned Newbie
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    The depression and the Treaty of Versalles were a much bigger factor to Hitler's rise and subquentially the war, racism, segregation, blah, blah, holocaust.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by coolerimmortal View Post
    It's tainted fruit, though. Great good has come from it, but at the cost of great evil. I'd take out the whole tree...we'd lose the good, but consider the evil that would be lost.

    Regarding the Holocaust, Christianity was used as a tool by Hitler in order to gain support. Through Christianity, he was able to bring about the Holocaust. No Christianity, no Holocaust.

    I apologize for any offense I may have caused...I have great respect for you, as I hope you know.
    ???
    I wasn't offended, just felt like debating.

    You see, I think that this is the problem you have. You see "religion" as causing people to do evil things, or good things. What I am saying is, it is not religion itself that is the problem. It is human nature, base desires, the things that can never be done away with, those are the things that cause the evil acts, not the religion itself.

    To continue with your metaphor, basically, you wouldn't be removing the "tree," you would be removing the branches(branches), and leaving the roots and the tree itself(man and human nature). As long as those are around, nothing will be solved, and since we cannot remove those, we are in a right pickle.

    Also, as I was saying, the Holocaust had little to do with Christianity. As I pointed out in the previous posts, there were many high ranking atheists involved in the Nazi party and the Holocaust. As well as occultist, deists, and even a few Islamics. Basically, as long as you hated Jews and pushed for white supremacy, you were alright in the Nazi books. While they may have claimed to have Christian roots, that was only to appease the masses. No Christianity=Holocaust still would have happened.

  7. #27
    StealthMoose is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saizou View Post
    I apologize in advance if the following post is incoherent ('coz I'm damn sleepy).


    Given that many people are generally selfish and self-serving by nature, any society based on the principle of social solidarity must give the greatest rewards to those who contribute the most to society.

    Thus, those motivated by egotistical reasons would strive to contribute to society for their own benefit, while those motivated by philantrophic and/or ethical reasons would theorethically strive to contribute to society anyway. This would mean that competition would lead to cooperation and fostering the drive to leave this earth a better place than it was before us.

    The real problem with this idea is the practical application.

    Mm I'd say the real problem with the idea is the somewhat optimistic notion that competition would lead to cooperation and such. I'd say it would infinitely more likely to lead to standing on other people to get where you want, back-stabbing, saboutage, that kind of thing.

  8. #28
    adonai is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    ^ Yeah, problem with Ayn Rand is that she assumed that stupid people would naturally die out.

    But they're like cockroaches, and even intelligent people cannot function as fully rational creatures for extended periods of time on every aspect of their lives.

    People will never be (collectively) smart enough to make it work. I mean look at what happened in Atlas Shrugged, everyone "smart" and "productive" person segregated him or herself from the rest of the world to allow everyone else to die out, how the hell does that work?
    Last edited by adonai; 01-19-2007 at 09:07 PM.

  9. #29
    TreeHugger340 is offline Banned Newbie
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    Even though I'm a pessimestic, I have to admit that the world is proving that an economy based on competition works... until a method of complete brainwashing is develop.

  10. #30
    vondg is offline Member Newbie
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    I be can gone
    Last edited by vondg; 01-21-2007 at 11:34 PM.

 

 
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