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  1. #21
    sperm worm is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    fucking retarsds, all of them.


  2. #22
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    Jakko is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Edit: What's the problem in a white man saying that he's proud of being white? If a black man, Japanese, Arabic, or Chinese can say that they are proud of their respective ethnicities, then white people have the right of being proud of their ethnicity, as well.
    You know, I have thought that same thing, many times. Whenever I voice this opinion, for some reason I am called "racist" by, surprisingly, many white people. For some reason, being "white" is considered a mark of shame in many places. I do not understand it. I have pride in my family, and their history, and their origins, but to make this known, in even the most mild way, makes people jump down my throat about all the things "you whites" should be ashamed of. It *almost* makes me understand them a little. Sure, I am indignant of the way the mass media treats my people(southerners) and their history, but there is a huge leap from that to out and out racism. I pity these people, as much as I pity those that want to make me ashamed for my history.

  3. #23
    StealthMoose is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakko View Post
    @Moose - Nope, that can be considered a definition of "belief," and "trust," in some ways. Afterall, doesn't everything go against blatant truth and knowledge before it is proven correct? Were the first people to believe the earth was round considered "retarded" by that same idea, moose?
    Well firstly, dude no. I highly doubt that obviously ignoring the truth would be defined as belief. This is called denial. And why would something have to fly in the face of consensual assumption before it's proven correct ? Sure it can happen, but its in no way a prerequisite. As far as your last point goes; no. I said truths, not idiotic, and entirely illogical, assumptions.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by StealthMoose View Post
    Well firstly, dude no. I highly doubt that obviously ignoring the truth would be defined as belief. This is called denial. And why would something have to fly in the face of consensual assumption before it's proven correct ? Sure it can happen, but its in no way a prerequisite. As far as your last point goes; no. I said truths, not idiotic, and entirely illogical, assumptions.
    Well, let's see, here is what you said:
    @ Jakko, But surely the actual amount of ignoring plain and obvious truths required to persist with their extensively skewed views qualifies as being retarded.
    Ok, now, look at it from their perspective. They are believing in "truths" they believe disregarded by the masses, or unproven. They also believe that the mass media is fooling people into believing such things. That, to me, sounds like "belief," "faith," or, at the very least, "conspiracy theories," not "retardation." After all, is not everything that is unproven "going against plain and obvious truths," before it is, in fact, proven? For example, was not the idea that the earth was round(well, spherical really), or that the earth rotated around the sun, or that spontaneous generation was untrue, were these not viewed by the majority of people at that time as "extensively skewed views," that "ignor[ed] plain and obvious truths?" That, as I see it, is likely how they view it. We cannot, therefore, regard their views as "retarded," that would just be ignorant, not to mention arrogant, but as you said, as misguided and skewed from reality. At least, that is my opinion.

  5. #25
    Ishman is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    ... anyone know where they keep the 'self-destruct' button?

  6. #26
    StealthMoose is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakko View Post
    You know, I have thought that same thing, many times. Whenever I voice this opinion, for some reason I am called "racist" by, surprisingly, many white people. For some reason, being "white" is considered a mark of shame in many places. I do not understand it. I have pride in my family, and their history, and their origins, but to make this known, in even the most mild way, makes people jump down my throat about all the things "you whites" should be ashamed of. It *almost* makes me understand them a little. Sure, I am indignant of the way the mass media treats my people(southerners) and their history, but there is a huge leap from that to out and out racism. I pity these people, as much as I pity those that want to make me ashamed for my history.
    Dude it's not remotely hard to understand why some people might feel shame about being white. As it generally means their ancestors were responsible for some fucking uncool shit, and along with the lack of reparation, it might make some people a feel somewhat guilty. Also due to the self-agrandising and defamation of other peoples that usually accompanies white people expressing pride of their culture it makes most people want to distance themselves. Now before you start, I'm not at all saying you should feel shame because your skin is some colour, just that it's not hard to comprehend in this instance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jakko View Post
    Ok, now, look at it from their perspective. They are believing in "truths" they believe disregarded by the masses, or unproven. They also believe that the mass media is fooling people into believing such things. That, to me, sounds like "belief," "faith," or, at the very least, "conspiracy theories," not "retardation." After all, is not everything that is unproven "going against plain and obvious truths," before it is, in fact, proven? For example, was not the idea that the earth was round(well, spherical really), or that the earth rotated around the sun, or that spontaneous generation was untrue, were these not viewed by the majority of people at that time as "extensively skewed views," that "ignor[ed] plain and obvious truths?" That, as I see it, is likely how they view it. We cannot, therefore, regard their views as "retarded," that would just be ignorant, not to mention arrogant, but as you said, as misguided and skewed from reality. At least, that is my opinion.
    I wasn't arguing that their choice to adhere to biased conspiracy theories is necessarily retarded, more their thoughts regarding simpler things, such as holding entire groups and peoples to blame for the actions of a few (i.e. Muslims), or how whole other peoples are some how intrinsically inferior and deserve to be treated akin to animals because their skin is a different sodding colour, etc. These things require complete lack of common sense, fuck that, any kind of sense in order to be believed. Also they are choosing to ignore evidence that clearly quashes their arguments, to persist with their ideals. Therefore they are retarded. As for your points regarding medieval astronomy theories, well to be honest, the context isn't really even comparable, being they were seeking answers to things that were at the time intangible, whereas the evidence today is not. Besides I'm pretty sure that the earth was proven to be flat by the ancient Greeks some time B.C.

  7. #27
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    Dude it's not remotely hard to understand why some people might feel shame about being white. As it generally means their ancestors were responsible for some fucking uncool shit, and along with the lack of reparation, it might make some people a feel somewhat guilty. Also due to the self-agrandising and defamation of other peoples that usually accompanies white people expressing pride of their culture it makes most people want to distance themselves. Now before you start, I'm not at all saying you should feel shame because your skin is some colour, just that it's not hard to comprehend in this instance.
    I'm gonna call bull on that.
    My family comes from Irish/Scottish heritage, and from Presbyterian Germans. Historically, we were some of the most oppressed groups around. Heck, in America, the Irish were even lower than slaves, they would send the Irish to do things too dangerous for slaves. There is nothing "my" family has to be ashamed of, and I will not suffer being looked down upon because of the actions of others.
    And if you want to play that card, why don't we look at other groups throughout history. In Asia, we have the Mongolians and the Huns, ruthless murderers and plunderers. Lets not forget the evil acts commited by the Russians of Asia, the ancient Chinese, the modern Chinese, the modern Japanese, the historic oppression in the caste systems of India, the list can go on.
    In Africa, you have some of the first recorded instances of slavery there, not to mention that most modern slavery as we not see it comes from the influence of Morroccan slavers. Or we could mention the tribal warfare in ancient and modern Africa, and the fact that a large portion of the blacks sold into slavery were sold by rival tribes, not kidnapped.
    In the Middle East, we could mention the current "unfortunate events," the massacre of the Armenians by the Ottomans, the historic oppression of the Shi'a, ect.
    Name any race or people, and you can bring up bad things about them. I refuse to see whites in any more negative or positive a light than any other, and, on the contrary, consider those very idea's "racist."

    Also, what right do you have to judge a race in the present over events of different individuals in the past? If you want to bring up all the ills and wrongs throughout all time, I think there will be plenty of blame to go around.


    I wasn't arguing that their choice to adhere to biased conspiracy theories is necessarily retarded, more their thoughts regarding simpler things, such as holding entire groups and peoples to blame for the actions of a few (i.e. Muslims), or how whole other peoples are some how intrinsically inferior and deserve to be treated akin to animals because their skin is a different sodding colour, etc. These things require complete lack of common sense, fuck that, any kind of sense in order to be believed. Also they are choosing to ignore evidence that clearly quashes their arguments, to persist with their ideals. Therefore they are retarded. As for your points regarding medieval astronomy theories, well to be honest, the context isn't really even comparable, being they were seeking answers to things that were at the time intangible, whereas the evidence today is not. Besides I'm pretty sure that the earth was proven to be flat by the ancient Greeks some time B.C.
    And yet is that not what you are doing in the quote above?

    I agree with you, that they are wrong, and horrible for what they believe, but does not calling them "retarded," a blatant generalization on a group, without knowing the individuals, put you on the same level as them, guilty of similar things.

    P.S. - From what I remember of Greek history, the ancient Greeks proved the earth was not flat. Farther than that, they were not sure, but they knew the moon was spherical, and thought the earth was either that, or cylindrical, if memory serves.

  8. #28
    StealthMoose is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakko View Post
    I'm gonna call bull on that.
    My family comes from Irish/Scottish heritage, and from Presbyterian Germans. Historically, we were some of the most oppressed groups around. Heck, in America, the Irish were even lower than slaves, they would send the Irish to do things too dangerous for slaves. There is nothing "my" family has to be ashamed of, and I will not suffer being looked down upon because of the actions of others.
    And if you want to play that card, why don't we look at other groups throughout history. In Asia, we have the Mongolians and the Huns, ruthless murderers and plunderers. Lets not forget the evil acts commited by the Russians of Asia, the ancient Chinese, the modern Chinese, the modern Japanese, the historic oppression in the caste systems of India, the list can go on.
    In Africa, you have some of the first recorded instances of slavery there, not to mention that most modern slavery as we not see it comes from the influence of Morroccan slavers. Or we could mention the tribal warfare in ancient and modern Africa, and the fact that a large portion of the blacks sold into slavery were sold by rival tribes, not kidnapped.
    In the Middle East, we could mention the current "unfortunate events," the massacre of the Armenians by the Ottomans, the historic oppression of the Shi'a, ect.
    Name any race or people, and you can bring up bad things about them. I refuse to see whites in any more negative or positive a light than any other, and, on the contrary, consider those very idea's "racist."

    Also, what right do you have to judge a race in the present over events of different individuals in the past? If you want to bring up all the ills and wrongs throughout all time, I think there will be plenty of blame to go around.



    And yet is that not what you are doing in the quote above?

    I agree with you, that they are wrong, and horrible for what they believe, but does not calling them "retarded," a blatant generalization on a group, without knowing the individuals, put you on the same level as them, guilty of similar things.

    P.S. - From what I remember of Greek history, the ancient Greeks proved the earth was not flat. Farther than that, they were not sure, but they knew the moon was spherical, and thought the earth was either that, or cylindrical, if memory serves.
    *sigh* I knew you would do that. I fucking knew it. You're intelligent, you're supposed to be able to get my point. Right, if you'll look, I was merely stating why some people might feel bad. In no way at all was I saying that you should actually feel ashamed of yourself because of your lineage. Of course you fucking shouldn't and if some racist idiot tries to make out elsewise a deft back hand is in order, followed by a polite 'get the fuck out'. Nor I am ignorant of the misdeeds of cultures around the globe thank you. Again, I was simply stating that due to the relevent proximity of the 'white' ancestors' actions, and modern societies stances on such things, its not too hard to understand.

    So to answer the bit I bolded. No it, it is not, you see?

    Oh and if you really want to argue it; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes

  9. #29
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    This will also work:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_earth#Antiquity

    On the subject of the actual meat of your post(nice of me to get to that, eh? =p): I know. I knew you didn't mean it like that, and I didn't take offense like that. Just as you were saying that was how some people would take it, I was responding in that manner. Plus, it's really fun, debating.

    But to answer the bold, which was an answer to my bold, yes, you in fact, were. You see, by saying you were could understand why some people would say that about white people, you were identifying with it. You can't very well identify with something, and then right after that fail to see the viewpoint of the very same argument(from a different perspective, it is true), now can you? :3

  10. #30
    StealthMoose is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    But dude in no way does being able to understand the reaction of another, mean you must feel the same thing yourself. It just means you are merely able to see possible reasons for their stance, not that you personally agree with them. Saying that I identify with it, purely on the basis of my being able to understand why they might feel that way is a pretty big presumption. Plus, you're wrong. I didn't say I can understand why people would say that about white people. I said I could understand why some people might feel some shame on behalf of the actions of their ancestors. As I previously said, anyone dumb enough to start hating on you because you're white needs punting off a bridge.

 

 
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