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Thread: Europe debate

  1. #21
    child_of_serenity's Avatar
    child_of_serenity is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Mine too. I love curry.

  2. #22
    Schiljo is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    yugoslavia was south europe jakko...

    slovenia is between italy, austria, hungary and croatia now do tell me how you see that in the east

  3. #23
    jamie1990 is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakko View Post
    Or the fact that Europeans threw away most of their culture and heritage, and national pride, when forming the EU... =p
    lolwut?

    Europeans throwing away their culture when joining EU? bullshit.

    I don't have any idea where the logic behind that came from.

  4. #24
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    I'm not in US, I'm not in EU but i'm interested.

    When i was in England and France last time it didn't seems to me that they are loosing any parts of their culture joining EU. It was a strange conclusion Jakko.
    Last edited by reinard-fox; 12-09-2006 at 01:33 AM.

  5. #25
    98abaile's Avatar
    98abaile is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Word from the wise to all the new people, don't bother trying to argue with Jakko, neither side will win and you'll just end up with high blood pressure and a splitting headache.
    No matter what you say, Jakko will either counter it with his own opinion, will misinterpret it or will change the topic (e.g. we were talking about safe road and he starts talking about fuel prices (despite the fact that America set its own fuel prices, since they can drill their own oil)).
    I promise you, Jakko will not see things your way and will not back down or admit he was wrong.

    To continue with this topic would be like repeatedly running face first at full tilt into a three foot thick brick wall.

    Requesting lock.

    P.S. I've been to America three times.

  6. #26
    BlueDemon is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    ok, i dont know much about this EU thingy,but countries don´t lose they culture etc.(this EU is just some kind of alliance,even if some of the poor country´s people have to "suffer" when they enter in thhe EU because of the new laws,prices etc.)
    and America isn´t like Europe(when you talked about the relief),cause Europe has a great variety of relief forms (and i can´t talk very much about this things,because i´m not that much into this political stuff and i don´t have that much experience^^)

  7. #27
    Saizou is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakko View Post
    I don't know what else you can call it. The EU made the member countries sign a "European Constitution" that they had to adhere to, over their own laws.
    Well, no. The EU constitution did crash and burn last year if I'm not entirely mistaken. Mind you, it wasn't an entirely unreasonable idea since it would have simplified the way the union works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jakko
    Members have to change their laws to fit with EU policy.
    That's not entirely unreasonable either. While there have been a lot of silliness from the EU, many of those changes have considerably eased trade and travel, amongst other things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jakko
    Members have up one of the most historically significant developements in the history of each country, which is currency.
    Now seriously Jakko, adopting a common currency for an strongly integrated economic region is in no way a bad idea. Imagine what the US would look like if every state had their own currency. The Euro is simply economic common sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jakko
    When a supranational organization starts setting policy for a nation, instead of the people of a nation deciding what they do or do not want, what do you call that?
    Every EU state has voluntarily chosen to join the union, thus voluntarily relinquishing some of their autonomy in exchange for greater cooperation. I believe this is called "democracy".

    Quote Originally Posted by Jakko
    I dunno, maybe not being part of the EU, being in the climate, I cannot understand it fully, but I cannot understand why you do not think you are losing a part of yourselves, when you let foreign powers set policy for you...
    Well, you coud consider the EU to be somewhat analogous to the US federal government. I've heard a lot of grumbling from americans that Washington is forcing something on them. Here in Europe it is Brussels that is doing the forcing part, but otherwise the situation is similar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jakko
    This is fun! Invigorating! Enlightening(I enjoy these debates, because it helps me to understand what people far away from me, or opposed in beliefs, think. The flow of ideas is a wonderful thing.) Anyone want to, I dunno, join in?
    I think I already did.

  8. #28
    BlueDemon is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    ^yeah,i think about this thing the same way

  9. #29
    Jakko's Avatar
    Jakko is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Now, see, 98, this is what I want. An intelligent member, using reasoning and logic, taking parts, rebutting, responding. For the record, I just like to argue, however, if someone gives proper evidence, I will admit I am wrong, and become swayed by their argument(as with Aikido and condoms, for example).

    Ok, here goes:

    Well, no. The EU constitution did crash and burn last year if I'm not entirely mistaken. Mind you, it wasn't an entirely unreasonable idea since it would have simplified the way the union works.
    True, but my point is that a trade organization, a foreign one at that, which is not technically its own nation, making a set of laws that free nations must adhere to. Say, for example, if the United Auto Workers Union of the United States made some laws, and expected the government of Finland to follow them. That is my point.

    Now seriously Jakko, adopting a common currency for an strongly integrated economic region is in no way a bad idea. Imagine what the US would look like if every state had their own currency. The Euro is simply economic common sense.
    Oh, you are right, it is, in many ways, a good sounding idea. Goodness knows it helped the US 200 years ago. However, with todays advancements in technology and commerce, different currencies are more easily interchangeable, and, while still helpful, are not the amazing ideas they would have been centuries ago. Maybe they rate as a "nifty," but not amazing.

    Also, my other reasoning for this statement is that they threw away part of their history when they threw away their currency. The study of the developement of currency can be considered the study of the rise of a nation, when looked at from a historical perspective. Many of the most important milestones in each nation can be tied to the developement of their own, unique, currency. While a uniform currency is a good idea from an economic perspective, I don't think it can be denied that it is a bad idea from an academic and cultural perspective.


    Every EU state has voluntarily chosen to join the union, thus voluntarily relinquishing some of their autonomy in exchange for greater cooperation. I believe this is called "democracy".
    That would not be what I would call democracy. I think the closer word would be "protectorate," a word that leaves a sour taste in my mouth. A established, self-supporting nation, giving up some of its freedom to a foreign power, for slight gain, I would call that becoming a "protectorate." However, we will no doubt disagree on that.

    Aside: I am not a fan of "democracy," in its strictest sense, rather, I favor republicanism.

    I think I already did.
    Wonderful! I am pondering your words, and, while I may argue with them, can see the merit and wisdom inherent in them.


    P.S. - Will probably add more once I get back from the auto shop. I am 4 months late getting my oil changed, and I think there is a problem with my chasis. They close in 2 hours, so I better go now...
    Last edited by Jakko; 12-09-2006 at 08:01 AM.

  10. #30
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakko View Post
    True, but my point is that a trade organization, a foreign one at that, which is not technically its own nation, making a set of laws that free nations must adhere to. Say, for example, if the United Auto Workers Union of the United States made some laws, and expected the government of Finland to follow them. That is my point.
    Noone is forcing them to join EU. It is therir free choice. If you don't want to follow EU rules don't participate. Simple. But if you want to gain something you must be ready to give something. If you want to earn more you need to follow rules which will allow you to earn more. If you don't want to don't participate
    Quote Originally Posted by Jakko View Post
    Also, my other reasoning for this statement is that they threw away part of their history when they threw away their currency. The study of the developement of currency can be considered the study of the rise of a nation, when looked at from a historical perspective. Many of the most important milestones in each nation can be tied to the developement of their own, unique
    In ancient times, when Russia didn't have any currency, people used to trade using parts of whight foxes skin. So, according to your logic, we abondoned our past when swiched to rubles? Don't mix up economics and history. No past is absndoned when you start to use new currence instead of old one.
    Aside: I am not a fan of "democracy," in its strictest sense, rather, I favor republicanism.
    Explain the difference please.

    That would not be what I would call democracy. I think the closer word would be "protectorate," a word that leaves a sour taste in my mouth. A established, self-supporting nation, giving up some of its freedom to a foreign power, for slight gain, I would call that becoming a "protectorate." However, we will no doubt disagree on that.
    You are playing with the words. It doesn't matter how to call it, just tell us why do you think it is bad? They gave up some of their freedom and what? What exactly did they lose?
    Last edited by reinard-fox; 12-09-2006 at 08:14 AM.

 

 
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