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Thread: Europe debate

  1. #11
    Jakko's Avatar
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    OOoooooh, Debate, this will be fun!!! =3

    Quote Originally Posted by Schiljo View Post
    slovenia isnt in eastern europe...

    and thats like comparing the part of US with the highest number of crime with the whole population of Europe for example

    ofcourse you think that EU is bad by generalising it like that, and as for heritage and culture, you cant just throw away sth that has lasted for thousands of years or how do you immagine that (america has only about 500 give or take 10 years if we count columbus)
    1. Using misleading rhetoric is a no - no in an argument, Schil. If you did some checking, you would see that a site called Nationmaster has compiled a set of statistics on crime(among other things). Per Capita(the only kind of statistic that matters when you are comparing places with different size populations), the US is ranked 8th, not 1st, out of 60 nations. Taking into account that there are 193 or so nations in the world, the US is no doubt even lower on that list.

    2. Slovenia is on the edge of central Europe. Taking into account that, until 1991, it was part of Yugoslavia(which I think everyone would agree was an eastern European nation), the case can be made that Slovenia can be generalized under the heading of "Eastern Europe(especially if one goes under the "classic" form of seperating Europe into east and west, without a "central" category)." Also, as Slovenia has been characterized by being made up of "slavic" people, who make up the majority of "eastern" Europe, the case gains further merit in my book. Even more than that, I have always divided Europe in such a way, and don't like being wrong. =p


    3. "Europe" has not existed for thousands of years. The people of those parts of Europe have existed for thousands of years. It is those people, their history and culture, and the nations that they have formed, that have existed for thousands of years, not "Europe." Let us make this perfectly clear. Even looking back through history, the idea as "Europe" as one people is a very recent ideal. Throwing away the culture's of your realms for this one group is, in my opinion, a travesty. And the fact that America does not have a long identity only makes us care more for history and culture. Maybe once you have gone without this, and are all homogenized into one "bland" nation, you will realize how much you have lost, for so little gain, I pray it is so.
    Quote Originally Posted by 98abaile View Post
    Lets not forget that Jakko has probably never been to Europe, he is also a republican, so it his duty to a) insult us dirty stinking liberals and b) believe anything the party propaganda and sensationalist media tells him to.

    Moose lives in the UK (I think), and IIRC, the UK has some of if not the safest roads in the world.

    Oh yeah Jakko, at least we have a history and culture to throw away. Your culture (like most things "American") was stolen from (or at least came from) other countries, mainly from Europe.
    Yep, I have never been to Europe. But then again, you have probably never been to America, so you have no room to talk either. And let us also take into account that the US is similar in size to Europe(in terms of area), so, for you to be able to make a statement about the whole of Europe on the grounds you are making(I am a European, you are not, I know better), then you must, necessarily, have been to all of Europe and all of America before you can make such a statement without coming off as a huge hypocrite(which you are coming off as, by the way). =p

    a.) Not the case, actually. I prefer to talk to liberals, reason and understand. You know, "discussion," in the classical sense. The rude, offensive one(who makes claims without any real back-up), seems to be you.

    b.) Now that is truly moronic. On one hand, for you to claim that the news source of one individual's choosing is biased and outright wrong, well, that is extremely bigoted and arrogant. Afterall, who is to say that it is not your news that is the one out of touch with reality. Furthermore, to assume that because I am a Republican(and I actually am not a Republican, by the way, though I have voted Republican the last two elections, as they were the party closest to my views that had a chance of winning) I only read/watch/listen to selected media identified with my party is also extremely arrogant. In fact, as I have said on occasion, I tend to read a variety of news sources, and not trust them on first notice. From my study of history, I have seen how the media and rumor can stray from the truth for their own selfish reasons(or even by accident), and tend to take unsubstantiated information with a grain of salt.

    Also, as with Schil, making misleading statements is a no-no, 98. =p You and I both know that there are many factors dependant on your observation of the "safe" roads of England. For example, you neglected to mention the outrageous gas prices England has compared to the US(http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/en...asoline-prices you are #2, while we are in the 100's, your government regulates gas to be that way, by the way[Steep fuel taxes—almost 85 percent of the price of every gallon—have been government policy for years—with the goal of driving more people onto public transport, reducing pollution and congestion—but they make British gasoline the most expensive in Europe.
    ]), and the fact that the US has almost 2x the number of cars per capita as the UK(http://www.nationmaster.com/red/grap...ehicles&nofb=1), both of which combine to mean that less people drive, for lesser periods of time, over shorter distances, on smaller roads(really, the size of the US and its roads also is an important factor to consider). When you consider those factors, what you said really does have less merit.

    As to culture, refer to my comments to Schil. Having history, you should not throw it away, as all of Europe seems to be doing. Also, what you said about American culture shows your bias. We originally took ideas and culture from Europe, because that was where we came from. However, once we got here, the cultures mixed, blended, creating many diverse cultures that vary greatly from area to area, a thing that has not happened in Europe until recent times. As we have had longer for the blending and changing to occur, and with the influx of new ideals and ideas from India, China, Africa, ect, you could say that America has its own rich culture, completely seperate from its European roots. So there. =p

    Quote Originally Posted by Chizabubble View Post
    oh horay let's do the europe Vrs. America thing again when almost all the people involved have never even bothered to visit the countries (or in this case continent) they are insulting and are just satisifying their own need for stupid pointless pride in their government while they complain about the exact thing they are defending to their own neighbours. so please, stay on topic and stfu.



    cranky am I.


    11 april, 1988
    Actually, I have little pride for my government, not in its current state, at least. What I have pride for is the area I am from(remember, America is similar in size to Europe, spread out enough that each state is like its own nation, with different histories and ways of life, different stories, different values), my people, my way of life. And please, Chiza, don't be angry, an interesting, insightful debate seems to be just the thing this forum needs, the topics have been, *ahem,* a bit lacking in quality recently, in my opinion.



    P.S. - I don't think CPR will like this...what can I say, I just can't let an argument go(that is not a good thing). Sorry.


    Edit: Kaze, I starting writing this before your post, and never saw it. Do you want I should delete it, or make this a seperate thread?

  2. #12
    StealDragon's Avatar
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    well jakko for a change i agree with you. but would i be wrong to ask CPR or Kaze to split this topic since you are so far of the flipping topic its embarassing

    >:O


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  3. #13
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    I like Europe. ^_^ The people are cool, especially the British, it's got a great history, they actually think speaking multiple languages is a good thing, and you can always pick on the French military.

    =P

    Oh, and you can't make fun of THEIR French. Not like Quebec.
    ~Digital_Eon~




  4. #14
    StealthMoose is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    So this is were my sodding posts went.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jakko View Post
    OOoooooh, Debate, this will be fun!!! =3

    3. "Europe" has not existed for thousands of years. The people of those parts of Europe have existed for thousands of years. It is those people, their history and culture, and the nations that they have formed, that have existed for thousands of years, not "Europe." Let us make this perfectly clear. Even looking back through history, the idea as "Europe" as one people is a very recent ideal. Throwing away the culture's of your realms for this one group is, in my opinion, a travesty. And the fact that America does not have a long identity only makes us care more for history and culture. Maybe once you have gone without this, and are all homogenized into one "bland" nation, you will realize how much you have lost, for so little gain, I pray it is so.
    I'm pretty sure that when the Schiljo referred to Europe, he meant like the continent, comprised of lots of culturally rich and diverse nations.. And dude its a wee bit naive if you think that because some of the countries of the EU have a shared currency etc that they have blended into a people devoid of identity. While you may think of the EU as a brand new country, in which all the citizens are the same, I don't. And I'm pretty damn positive the mainland Europeans don't either. The idea behind the EU isn't to homogenise the inhabitants, it's more along the lines of forming closer relations between all the countries to improve trade, prevent wars.. you know those kinds of things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jakko View Post
    Also, as with Schil, making misleading statements is a no-no, 98. =p You and I both know that there are many factors dependant on your observation of the "safe" roads of England. For example, you neglected to mention the outrageous gas prices England has compared to the US(http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/en...asoline-prices you are #2, while we are in the 100's, your government regulates gas to be that way, by the way[Steep fuel taxes—almost 85 percent of the price of every gallon—have been government policy for years—with the goal of driving more people onto public transport, reducing pollution and congestion—but they make British gasoline the most expensive in Europe.
    ]), and the fact that the US has almost 2x the number of cars per capita as the UK(http://www.nationmaster.com/red/grap...ehicles&nofb=1), both of which combine to mean that less people drive, for lesser periods of time, over shorter distances, on smaller roads(really, the size of the US and its roads also is an important factor to consider). When you consider those factors, what you said really does have less merit.
    As little as I know about roads or cars or whatever (I don't even have a provisional liscense), I don't think it's my ignorance at fault here that I fail to see how our crazy fuel prices mean our roads aren't safe? Really seems a fairly pointless assertation in relation to the point. And as for these taxes attempting to drive people onto public transport, reducing pollution and congestion.... good.. ? And dude! You can't really be proud of the fact that many citizens in the US have stupid amounts of cars, many of which usually guzzle fuel like a hooker with a dislocatable jaw. That is such unnecessary raping of the environment just to show off.

  5. #15
    Jakko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StealthMoose View Post
    So this is were my sodding posts went.



    I'm pretty sure that when the Schiljo referred to Europe, he meant like the continent, comprised of lots of culturally rich and diverse nations.. And dude its a wee bit naive if you think that because some of the countries of the EU have a shared currency etc that they have blended into a people devoid of identity. While you may think of the EU as a brand new country, in which all the citizens are the same, I don't. And I'm pretty damn positive the mainland Europeans don't either. The idea behind the EU isn't to homogenise the inhabitants, it's more along the lines of forming closer relations between all the countries to improve trade, prevent wars.. you know those kinds of things.
    I don't know what else you can call it. The EU made the member countries sign a "European Constitution" that they had to adhere to, over their own laws. Members have to change their laws to fit with EU policy. Members have up one of the most historically significant developements in the history of each country, which is currency. When a supranational organization starts setting policy for a nation, instead of the people of a nation deciding what they do or do not want, what do you call that?

    I dunno, maybe not being part of the EU, being in the climate, I cannot understand it fully, but I cannot understand why you do not think you are losing a part of yourselves, when you let foreign powers set policy for you...


    Quote Originally Posted by StealthMoose View Post
    As little as I know about roads or cars or whatever (I don't even have a provisional liscense), I don't think it's my ignorance at fault here that I fail to see how our crazy fuel prices mean our roads aren't safe? Really seems a fairly pointless assertation in relation to the point. And as for these taxes attempting to drive people onto public transport, reducing pollution and congestion.... good.. ? And dude! You can't really be proud of the fact that many citizens in the US have stupid amounts of cars, many of which usually guzzle fuel like a hooker with a dislocatable jaw. That is such unnecessary raping of the environment just to show off.
    Oh, I was not saying that my the data showed that Britain is a dangerous place to drive, I was saying that, when taking that information into consideration, 98's statement was misleading when he made such a blanket statement about Britain. What I was saying is that it is not that the drivers are any better in Britain, or that the laws are better, or the roads better, but that they are, well, different, and he could not apply things in the manner that he did. Basically, I was saying he was making an unfair statement, without factoring in the variables that make-up how many people drive, how long or far, and how well(I would guess, since more people in the US drive, that the average US citizen is a better driver anyway). I thought that was obvious, maybe I should have made that clearer.

    In Britain, which has 80,800 square miles, public transportation might be a valid option. In the US, which has about 3.7 million square miles, it just isn't feasible. Also, if you notice, Britain has about 4.2 vehicles per person, compared to 7.6 for the US. Obviously, the majority of those vehicles are not the personal transportation of people(most are used by bussiness', government, military, ect.; things we have no direct control over, in other words). Soooo...you didn't really have much of a point, there, I think.







    This is fun! Invigorating! Enlightening(I enjoy these debates, because it helps me to understand what people far away from me, or opposed in beliefs, think. The flow of ideas is a wonderful thing.) Anyone want to, I dunno, join in? It won't be much fun if it is just Stealthmoose, 98, Schil, and I. On the other side of the coin, it won't be much fun if it is several dozen people against myself, I might miss a post or two, and burn myself out typing. So, any US fans, or people that just hate Europeans, want to help out? People that hate the US are also welcome. =p

  6. #16
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    Yeah, the Europeans are way ahead of North America when it comes to the environment; that can't be denied. I love you guys. :3

    But Europe does try to assimilate its members, to some extent - at least, that's the case with immigrants. There's a lot of fear about the many Muslims that are emigrating (especially to France) and about a possible Muslim takeover of Europe from within, especially considering that their population is increasing (within Europe) while other populations aren't. Depending on which view you take, that could be a good or a bad thing.
    ~Digital_Eon~




  7. #17
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    Yeah, I don't see any reason to hate Europeans at all.

    Everyone is just giving off lots of random numbers and statics that in they end just about every industrialized nation in the world is party guilty of or has some hand in screwing with. I mean it really is pointless.

    I also think there should be more nudity I mean really it's only naked bodies.

  8. #18
    Ishman is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Meh, both countries are pretty shitty.

  9. #19
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    Anyway china's gonna take over the world while we are napping during easter break.

  10. #20
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    My money's on India, personally.

 

 
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