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._.
i think it is stated in the bible somewhere that souls of the well meaning and virtuous non-believers will be saved as well.
... on second thought this raises and interesting point, im agnostic, and if i live virtuous life, while denying or downplaying Gods existence while having been educated about him, will i be damned or saved?
I like to die with the songs I love stuck in my head. I hope to make the most of these hollow bones we become.
I raise a toast to the the souls that sang all along. I've been gathering friends to just to make some sounds,
before the ship goes down, I've been making amends by making the rounds before the whole world ends
[Chit Chat Specific Forum Rules] // Last Update - Friday March 13, 2009
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Well, not that I believe the Pope is always right, but according to him, God and reason go together, and it's reasonable to not believe everything you hear; it's logic. I don't believe in a wrathful God just as I don't believe in an old man in the sky or that big businesses actually care about people. It's hardly your fault if you think logically.
~Digital_Eon~
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@StealDragon - I'm pretty sure that the virtuous non-believers just get sent to languish and stew in purgatory, which is mighty considerate..
@Jakko/CPR - Nobody is saying you can't believe in it, nobody is trying to make you believe anything else. However just because you do believe it, doesn't mean it isn't an entirely silly idea. It would be perfectly fine of me to literally believe that Oven Glove's are a higher form of life, to which we should aspire to imitate, or to believe that if I eat rocks everyday, I will be in turn be gifted rock like toughness by the spirit of the Rock, or any other thing. Doens't mean that any of them wouldn't be completely dumb.
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im Christian so i belive that there will come a day where everybody will have heard of Jesus and have the choice to either accept Him as our savior or not. then comes the judgement.
nami is the greatest
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Nice interprutation. ^-^Originally Posted by Talamare
I think you should replace "we" with "I."
Cause.. you need those stuff. You want it. XD
I'm a little horrified that you want a "lesson based on the world views." Religion, in its most common form, is defined as a belief in the supernatural. So, technically, religion should be based on God's views.
So what if Jesus was Jewish? Jewish is not necessarily a religion; it's also a race.
God promised he would never wipe the whole world out with a flood.
Technically speaking... He can still kill the whole world with a giant tornado, volcano, comet, meteor, ect. XD [though, that obviously won't happen].
Wow.. you're putting all the blame on God...
And I never meant "If you fucked up by doing ____, God will strike lightning down and kill you so _______ can see how bad that was and repent."
I think I need to backtrack... we're talking about two different types of death. Anyone who chooses to sin receives the punishment of death. And I do not mean physical death. I mean spiritual death.
So.. the scenario is really like this:
Human: I sinned and I am accountable for punishment. uh oh!
God: Here, accept Christ and I will cancel that punishment.
Human who rejects God: No thanks. I'll try my own ways.
*human dies*
Human fails following own ways.
Human gets punished.
The difference is.. I believe the blame belongs on the human. I think you believe it is God's fault...
No....
God isn't killing humanity. We're screwed and dying because of ourselves.
Sure. He can love us even though we are not His yet.
No need for sarcasm...
Word choice please. Let's be civil...
fyi, Revelations was not written by Paul. I think it was John...
It's like when you make your claims you say all of the Christians will disappear, but they won’t
O_o
Christians are defined as someone who believe in Jesus as our Savior.
(savior from sin.)
^______^
God is "perfect." In the world of relativity, you know as well as I do that "good" does not imply "perfect." You may be a "good" person, but if you sin once in your life, you are not "perfect."
And we have all sinned at one time. Maybe nothing extreme like murdering or stealing... but we surely have done a lot of other sins like lying and coveting (whether verbally or mentally). And the thing with God is, he sees all sins as equal. Every sin is the absense of good.
Thus, being "good" cannot save you alone from sin.
how would you truely know how much "good" is necessary to get into heaven?
How many people would you need to help in your lifetime to go to heaven then?
1?
10?
100?
1000?
Surely, you cannot answer this question. Neither can I.
Thus, an easier requirement was established. The only requirement and way to get into heaven is to accept Jesus Christ as your personal Savior. ^___^
Why not? works for me. ^_^
That's just your opinion. I see a steady decrease on the need for God since a lot have the "why do I need God" mentality. I see a lot of things in society I cannot approve of becoming more and more acceptable into society. I even see some things [*cough* Pope *cough*] that scare me.
Hey, that's just one guy's idea.
Fact is, nobody knows when anyway. Personally, I'd prefer it to happen before I have to do something really stressful [like take these finals] XD
I'm tempted to call "false-doctrine" on that. I have never heard of this...
Honestly, I think if you actually knew about God and Jesus and chose to not accept him, I think it would be a lotttttt worse than you in comparrison to some tribal group that have never heard of religion in their lifetime.
Again, how would being virtuous save you? Let's say, you murdered 1 person intentionally. How can you, as a murder, go to heaven?
Serve time in jail? If so... then "how much"?
Donate to charities? If so... then "how much"?
Donate your time to volunteer associations? If so... then "how much is enough"?
Help the poor? If so... then "how much"?
See where I'm going?
OR
the alternative is to become a Christian.
Disclaimer: You do not need to go to church to be a Christian. You do not need to read a Bible daily/monthly/yearly to be a Christian. You do not even have to agree with all of the Christian teachings (ex:evolution vs creationism).
Honestly, it is not hard to become a Christian
Step 1: Admit you have sinned in your life.
Step 2: Make a prayer to God. Here is an example prayer:
Lord Jesus, I admit I am a sinner. I need forgiveness. I am sorry for my sins and I don't want to sin against You anymore. I believe You are the Son of God and You died on the cross for MY sins. I also believe that you rose from the dead so that I, too, may have victory over the grave. Please forgive me now Lord and cleanse me. Come into my heart and give me a new life. Thank You, Jesus, for shedding your blood for me and for hearing and answering my prayer. In Jesus Name I pray, Amen.
Step 3: You're done! Congrats brother/sister. I'll see you in heaven!
Technically, if you think about it...
You really have nothing to lose if you said that prayer. If you truely believed those words at one point of your life and admit it to God, you're saved. And, salvation can never be taken from you no matter how bad/non-Christian-like you act. I don't care if you murder 1,000,000,000 people after you truely said those words. You'd still go to heaven because God is graceous.
?_?
I can logically explain why I believe in God too. Though, it'll sound logic to me, it'll sound stupid to you.
I don't get where you're going...
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We probably will cause it some way or another whith those weapons we got. We're already on our way to ruin this earth, so when we are done I guess we will go to another planet. The sun will stop shining in a couple of thousand years anyway, so we better get going
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I don't understand something, Why do so many people care if God punishes them or not, when they do not believe in him/her/it in the first place?
If God doesn't exist for them, then whatever a non-existent being does shouldn't be of their concern, because, in the first place, he/she/it (for them) does not exist.
I believe in God (in my own way), but if I'm to be saved along with a group of murderers, while a good man gets to be condemned, just because he doesn't believe in God, I'd rather go to hell with that good man, that spending my eternity in a so called heaven, with a group of biased people, murderers (and whatever), and an unjust God. Anyways, MY God, has never been just a good being to begin with, nor do I think that he/she/it is the one to grant salvation (or whatever), but I'm trying to be open-minded to that possibility.
You can also think of it, in a more personal way. You have an atheist friend, who is a good person, on day he's killed by some man, who happened to be a Christian. Being your friend an atheist, he'd go to hell for not accepting Christ as his saviour, and for not believing in God, yet, the one that killed your friend gets saved by the grace of God, since he was a Christian that accepted that was a sinner. Do you think this would be a fair result? Just say yes, or no.
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I belive in the whole Judgment day thing
I dont know the other versions but for Muslims it's the Angel Gabreil blows this horn called elnacour(in arabic) and that horn is an order from GOD it's not as blunt as everybody just drops dead. It's more like everybody's souls leave their bodies even the Angels.
Then the Judgement part.
"Let my ears hear not but the most sinful of lyrics"
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You realise you're implying you have no desire for teachings that would better help people understand and thus get along with one another.. ? How can you be 'horrified' that someone would like lessons which would help to clear many people of ignorance regarding others and thus allow for much more integrated societies? Also I'd tend to go with the idea that religion is a set of beliefs and practices shared by a group of people - that is pretty much what the dictionary says. And as for Jesus being Jewish... are you being deliberately obtuse? Her point was that the world today needs ideas and teachings which are for people from all cultures - not just for one particular group of people.
I believe the smiley for this is .... -___-.. If your God were truly omnipotent etc why would it need some lame technical loophole to reap havok and destruction - surely it would be infallible and wouldn't need such technicallities as it would know everything that would have happened anyway.
I believe her point was that your God wouldn't be so petty as to destroy someones life and cause the grief and torment that would ensue, just to make a point.
From what I gather, this again was not her meaning. She doesn't appear to be blaming yer God for people dying. DE seems to be affirming her point that God would not be like a petty kid.
Tsch! A christian is defined as somone who believes in, and follows the teaching's, of Jesus. That doesn't in itself confer exemption from sin. Neither can you claim that all christians believe in the idea of Jesus the Saviour as you seem to, as many christians believe Jesus was simply a man and not at all divine.
Argh! Dude that is entirely Not the point. This is one of my biggest problems with a lot of religion; most people do it because its all completely self serving. You are seriously missing out the Entire point of helping out others. It doesn't need some fucking tally of good deeds. The whole point behind helping others isn't just so you can get bloody kudos points and make sure your self-centred arse gets into heaven. If you help somebody out it's supposed to be because thats the humane thing to do, looking out for other people if they need help. If your actions are all motivated by the desire to assure yourself a place in heaven surely that undermines the whole purpose of your good deeds as they are all entirely selfish.
And as for the most idiotic point in that paragraph.. All sins as equal ? There isn't even an ounce of logic to that. Adhering to that belief, the classic example of a man who steals a loaf of bread from a man with many, so he can feed his malnourished family, is just as sinful as some little fuck that molests kids.
Again time for -___- *sigh* The pope is just another man. He is not a supernatural demonspawn sent here to lead infernal hordes in perverting humanity. He is a man.
.. once again you're ignoring the point of the paragraph..
Well that is just lovely.. Doesn't matter how much of a truly loving and humane person you are, or how much a manipulative, self centred, loathesome twat you are, all CPR's God cares about is a simple yes or no.
And if we set asside the underlying self-serving attitude or being repentent so you can get into heaven, once again it's not about reaching a determined quota of good deeds. It's supposed to be about Actually being apologetic and regretful for what you've done and living your life differently, not just being good enough to square off the good-bad balance so you can get back on the road to heavenly bliss.
ARGH I am honestly impressed that my brain is even able to handle this much dumb at one point in time.
As for the first bolded bit; you are trying to state that just simply saying a few sentences is enough to absolve someone of all their horrendous deeds and grant them heavenly bliss? Can you be any more unjust ? And I thought your God was supposed to be a proponet of Justice?
Now as far as the second - I think my eyes are literally bleeding from exposure to idiocy. Those lines shit in the face of everything it is to be a bloody christian. Here, http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Christian , check the fifth and sixth definitions in particular. According to your beliefs you would agree with this; a teenager rob's something like a packet of chewing gum, but gets caught and decides that it was wrong and he's sorry and then goes and confesses to a priest and becomes absolved of his sins. Many years down the line, this teenager hasn't gotten the best deals in life and feels very bitter and malicious. He then goes out one night, and when walking home see's a woman walking alone and then decides he's gonna take what he wants as life hasnt given it to him and he rapes this woman. According to your idiot logic he is immediately cleansed of this, and will have a blissful existence in heaven due to the get-get-out-jail-free card he got when he was a teenager.
If you truly weren't bothered by someone who had murdered that many people because at one point in time he had confessed believe in your God, then you are one completely inhumane mofo.
It seems pretty simple to me - I believe she's highlighting the utter lack of logic for a loving, benign and all-knowing God to behave like a spoilt child and smite down a few people because they didn't believe it existed, but still lead virtuous lives.
In closing, I am sorry to StealDragon for molesting his thread with all this talk of religion
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I read/responded to CPR's post first, but I'd like to say that StealthMoose is VERY correct in my opinion. ^_____^
No, I think the WORLD needs this. As a world society, we have to focus on the beliefs of everyone - even if we don't believe in them ourselves - in order to create a fair and kind place. Why else would interfaith dialogue be such an important thing?
If God didn't want the world this way - globalization, that is - God would have done something. Who's to say that the God Christians believe in isn't the same as, say, the Hindu God (as some are monotheistic)? Why should we say that religion should be based on the views of someone who came and taught 2000 years ago instead of the views we need to create a peaceful world today?
As for the Judaism thing, Jesus believed in the Jewish God and that probably influenced his teachings. I think that for people to unite in peace, we need teachings that are less religion-specific and can touch the world. But anyways.
Oh, so God's a lawyer now. "I'm not going to use a FLOOD again. I'll just use something else."God promised he would never wipe the whole world out with a flood.
Technically speaking... He can still kill the whole world with a giant tornado, volcano, comet, meteor, ect. XD [though, that obviously won't happen].
I was under the impression that God wasn't going to wipe out everyone again at ALL.
The way you're describing it, it is God's fault - for not being forgiving enough to forgive someone's ignorance. God doesn't forgive selectively, God forgives EVERYONE. If God can forgive someone for many murders, can't God forgive someone for being ignorant and not accepting spirituality (with logic, might I add, because there is some degree of logic in not being religious)?
Wow.. you're putting all the blame on God...
And I never meant "If you fucked up by doing ____, God will strike lightning down and kill you so _______ can see how bad that was and repent."
I think I need to backtrack... we're talking about two different types of death. Anyone who chooses to sin receives the punishment of death. And I do not mean physical death. I mean spiritual death.
So.. the scenario is really like this:
Human: I sinned and I am accountable for punishment. uh oh!
God: Here, accept Christ and I will cancel that punishment.
Human who rejects God: No thanks. I'll try my own ways.
*human dies*
Human fails following own ways.
Human gets punished.
The difference is.. I believe the blame belongs on the human. I think you believe it is God's fault...
Killing someone's spirit is the same as smiting them physically, except worse.
(And anyway, I believe in reincarnation, so that point is kinda irrelevant to me. That's because I believe God is so forgiving that we all get more chances to live - like what about that poor little baby who died painfully due to disease? I think that baby gets another chance to live. But anyways.)
Although they did build a temple on the site of Solomon's temple. =PNo....
If God isn't killing humanity, why would God let people be "condemed" for not believing in Jesus? Watching a crime happen and doing nothing even though you could very well stop it is almost as bad as committing that crime itself.
God isn't killing humanity. We're screwed and dying because of ourselves.
God doesn't kill humanity. It IS our fault that we do bad things. But that doesn't mean that God is going to selectively forgive people based on faith.
So if we die and we haven't converted to Christianity God doesn't love us anymore...? (Wait, just another question: Is God defined as male?)Sure. He can love us even though we are not His yet.
Really? I thought I was Christian because I believed in God and because I believed in (the majority of) Jesus's teachings. Guess I was wrong. If I'm not a Christian, what am I?Christians are defined as someone who believe in Jesus as our Savior.
(savior from sin.)
If every sin is equal, why are some punished differently?
God is "perfect." In the world of relativity, you know as well as I do that "good" does not imply "perfect." You may be a "good" person, but if you sin once in your life, you are not "perfect."
And we have all sinned at one time. Maybe nothing extreme like murdering or stealing... but we surely have done a lot of other sins like lying and coveting (whether verbally or mentally). And the thing with God is, he sees all sins as equal. Every sin is the absense of good.
Thus, being "good" cannot save you alone from sin.
how would you truely know how much "good" is necessary to get into heaven?
How many people would you need to help in your lifetime to go to heaven then?
1?
10?
100?
1000?
Surely, you cannot answer this question. Neither can I.
Thus, an easier requirement was established. The only requirement and way to get into heaven is to accept Jesus Christ as your personal Savior. ^___^
You're right, it isn't a matter of how many people you help. It's a matter of WHY you help. Do you help people because, in your heart, you truly believe in helping people? Do you feel bad after doing something wrong and wish for forgiveness? And even if you don't, God still will forgive you. I only believe in Hell for those who openly wish to go there, because I don't think anyone is going to Hell. I think God loves us all no matter what we have done, forgives us for what we want to be forgiven and forgives us for what we don't, and our ignorance in not knowing.
You don't need to accept Jesus as your saviour, you just need to try and live by his teachings... like the Golden Rule. And if you're doing that because you want to help people, that's what you really need. ^_^ That makes the world a better place.
Which might be why we have logical arguments against your purely faith-based ones. Do you really believe in slavery, CPR? Or that women in their menstruation period are dirty? Or that praying out on street corners is... blah blah blah. 'Cause things like that don't happen anymore. It's a lot harder to apply a story that is set thousands of years ago to life than a story set now. Wouldn't it be easier for people to relate if, say, the Prodigal Son story was set with a modern family? The kid takes half his father's fortune and gambles and... well, you know the rest. The point of the story is the same, but people would relate to it better. You may be an exception, but there are OTHERS.
Why not? works for me. ^_^
I'd just like to point out that Protestants have only been around for a few hundred years while Catholicism has been around since nearly the time of Jesus. Yeah, and Catholics are sooooo out of touch.
That's just your opinion. I see a steady decrease on the need for God since a lot have the "why do I need God" mentality. I see a lot of things in society I cannot approve of becoming more and more acceptable into society. I even see some things [*cough* Pope *cough*] that scare me.
To be honest, I see a lot of things that I can't approve of, either. Like TV-evangelists who call for the deaths of others that they simply don't agree with. Or the support of Israel, no questions asked, for anything they do. Don't get me wrong, I think Israel should be a country, but it shouldn't be one that invades other countries and causes war. (Same goes for China. Another time.)
We have a "why do I need God" mentality because religion hasn't adapted properly to the world. Most people either have a different religion, don't believe in God, don't really believe in God even though they go to Church and all, or are extremists. We haven't found a balance with an acceptable way of life yet.
Then why'd you put up the site? =P
Hey, that's just one guy's idea.
Fact is, nobody knows when anyway. Personally, I'd prefer it to happen before I have to do something really stressful [like take these finals] XD
Neither have I, but I damn wish I had.
I'm tempted to call "false-doctrine" on that. I have never heard of this...
It's not a matter of how much. It's a matter of WHY. Are you donating to charities or serving time in jail because you have to, or because you want to repent for what you've done? And saying "I'm going to convert to Christianity so I can go to Heaven" makes you NO better than them.
Honestly, I think if you actually knew about God and Jesus and chose to not accept him, I think it would be a lotttttt worse than you in comparrison to some tribal group that have never heard of religion in their lifetime.
Again, how would being virtuous save you? Let's say, you murdered 1 person intentionally. How can you, as a murder, go to heaven?
Serve time in jail? If so... then "how much"?
Donate to charities? If so... then "how much"?
Donate your time to volunteer associations? If so... then "how much is enough"?
Help the poor? If so... then "how much"?
See where I'm going?
OR
the alternative is to become a Christian.
Disclaimer: You do not need to go to church to be a Christian. You do not need to read a Bible daily/monthly/yearly to be a Christian. You do not even have to agree with all of the Christian teachings (ex:evolution vs creationism).
Honestly, it is not hard to become a Christian
Step 1: Admit you have sinned in your life.
Step 2: Make a prayer to God. Here is an example prayer:
Lord Jesus, I admit I am a sinner. I need forgiveness. I am sorry for my sins and I don't want to sin against You anymore. I believe You are the Son of God and You died on the cross for MY sins. I also believe that you rose from the dead so that I, too, may have victory over the grave. Please forgive me now Lord and cleanse me. Come into my heart and give me a new life. Thank You, Jesus, for shedding your blood for me and for hearing and answering my prayer. In Jesus Name I pray, Amen.
Step 3: You're done! Congrats brother/sister. I'll see you in heaven!
Technically, if you think about it...
You really have nothing to lose if you said that prayer. If you truely believed those words at one point of your life and admit it to God, you're saved. And, salvation can never be taken from you no matter how bad/non-Christian-like you act. I don't care if you murder 1,000,000,000 people after you truely said those words. You'd still go to heaven because God is graceous.
God loves everyone equally. That's not going to change. It's up to us to determine what we're going to do with our life. CPR, are you just going to sit back and say "I believe in Jesus as my saviour, so I'm going to Heaven!" and not care about anyone else (aside from the whole wanting-them-to-be-saved/converted thing)? I won't care about that. What happens after death happens, and I'm going to do what I can to make this world a better place because I want to help people here and now.
And if I don't go to Heaven because I didn't say that prayer? Instead, I prayed for the well-being of others in this life? Then I don't care, because I've done something to improve the lives of people here... and that makes me much happier than an eternity in Heaven for just believing in one person.
My point was that it's logical for people not to believe in everything they're told, and if God happens to be one of them, well, that's their logic. God's not going to tell them that they should have believed in God and nothing else and still think that logic and religion are important together. God's just going to forgive their ignorance.?_?
I can logically explain why I believe in God too. Though, it'll sound logic to me, it'll sound stupid to you.
I don't get where you're going...
~Digital_Eon~
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