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  1. #41
    Nighthawk18 is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saizou View Post
    Actually it would primarily be the fault of Britain and France, with a few smaller European countries (e.g. Belgium or Portugal) sharing some of the blame. Nearly a half-century of imperialism followed by what basically amounted to leaving overnight doesn't really help a continent's prospects, you know.
    yeah but in alot of those countries the british were driven out by force so they cant be blamed - the problems in africa r mainly due 2 tribalism and corruption amoung the politians
    If uve gotta draw the line sumwhere, make sure its drawn in pencil

  2. #42
    martyr3810's Avatar
    martyr3810 is offline Banned Community Builder
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    Nighthawk said what I did.

    On another note, to my great amusement you say we lost both wars when from a military standpoint we won. I look at a kill ratio and the amount of damage done... and no matter how you look at it, we won. To quote...

    "Though our generals are so stupid, our strategy so poor as to guarantee defeat... Though our morale is trampled in the deepest ditch, shot through with heroin and bitter failure...

    Though we face the toughest bravest fighters in the world, strange little men with hearts like those of tigers... Though we make the world despise us. Though we do things that will stain our souls forever...

    Though America eats its own intestines over this, cities riven with unrest, leaders inspiring loathing and distrust....

    We cannot lose.

    Because when we are gone, when the brave little fighters finally kick us out and we finally lose all stomach for this wretched, knotted puzzle of a war --

    No one. NO ONE. In south east Asia, or anywhere else on earth will look at what is left at Vietnam...

    And think it smart to fuck with the United States."

    58,148 Americans killed in Vietnam... ... More NVA and Viet Cong are believed to have died in the TET offensive alone just to give you an idea. Never mind civilian casualties. And how MANY people did we have? 9,087,000 military personnel served on active duty during the Vietnam era (August 5, 1964 - May 7, 1975).

    HALF OF ONE PERCENT OF OUR ARMED FORCES, OH NOES!

    We have generations of poverty, unrest and instability in Vietnam... everything from birth defects as a side effect from Agent Orange to the fact that the vietnamese essentially HAVE no economy as they have nothing to export or make and at the same time repaying China (and it would be russia too except that broke up) for their support during Nam. This continues to today.

    If we "lost" it is at best a technicality. Because they certainly didn't win.

    And as for IRAQ, I'm sorry but... we lost? We're losing? HAHAHAAH, We have the oil, we made our point, we got an excuse for military excercises and in return they're killing what? 70-150 people a month? More people die in car wrecks in the U.S. a month. MANY times more. Losing. Please. The "war" is so difficult that we only have 120-150,000 troops stationed there on average right now. If you called for a total mobilization... well to give you an idea, the U.S. army alone has 495,000 active soldiers and 342,000 reserve soldiers. Thats NOT including the Navy, The Air Force OR the Marines. This is laughable.

    Thats not a war, thats a political statement with military training and profit.

  3. #43
    Saizou is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Quote Originally Posted by martyr3810
    On another note, to my great amusement you say we lost both wars when from a military standpoint we won. I look at a kill ratio and the amount of damage done... and no matter how you look at it, we won. To quote...
    Do you really think that victory in war is determined only by the amount of destruction that is caused? Have you ever heard of something called strategic objectives?

    And despite your blusterous quote, it is quite obvious to anyone that the US did, in fact lose the Vietnam war. It was a huge PR loss, a huge financial waste, and to top it all off, the main US objective, preventing the North Vietnamese from conquering South Vietnam failed miserably.

    Simply put, the US lost far more than it gained from the war (which was precisely nothing at all), while the North Vietnamese leaders achieved their main strategic objective (i.e. Vietnamese reunification under communism).

    Quote Originally Posted by martyr3810
    58,148 Americans killed in Vietnam... ... More NVA and Viet Cong are believed to have died in the TET offensive alone just to give you an idea. Never mind civilian casualties. And how MANY people did we have? 9,087,000 military personnel served on active duty during the Vietnam era (August 5, 1964 - May 7, 1975).

    HALF OF ONE PERCENT OF OUR ARMED FORCES, OH NOES!
    And? In World War II, the germans inflicted far greater military and civilian casualties on the soviets than the soviets did on germans. However, it is not in doubt that the russians eventually won that war, now is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by martyr3810
    We have generations of poverty, unrest and instability in Vietnam... everything from birth defects as a side effect from Agent Orange to the fact that the vietnamese essentially HAVE no economy as they have nothing to export or make and at the same time repaying China (and it would be russia too except that broke up) for their support during Nam. This continues to today.
    And do the vietnamese leaders give a shit? No, since to them all that was an acceptable sacrifice. In the same way, many Iraqi insurgent leaders don't give a shit whether the rest of Iraq goes to shit as long as their personal power grows. Thus, while the vietnamese people certainly lost on the war, the leaders of North Vietnam gained from it.

    Quote Originally Posted by martyr3810
    If we "lost" it is at best a technicality. Because they certainly didn't win.
    Define "winning".

    Quote Originally Posted by martyr3810
    And as for IRAQ, I'm sorry but... we lost? We're losing?
    You are losing. You have failed to achieve any meaningful strategic goal, the war is pinning down the US army, and the occupation is an enormous financial drain. What have you got in return? Nothing at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by martyr3810
    HAHAHAAH, We have the oil,
    What oil? The Iraqi oil production is actually down from pre-war levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by martyr3810
    we made our point,
    What point?

    [QUOTE=martyr3810we got an excuse for military excercises and in return they're killing what? 70-150 people a month?[/QUOTE]

    Am I wrong in assuming that you don't value human life very highly?

    Quote Originally Posted by martyr3810
    More people die in car wrecks in the U.S. a month. MANY times more. Losing. Please. The "war" is so difficult that we only have 120-150,000 troops stationed there on average right now. If you called for a total mobilization... well to give you an idea, the U.S. army alone has 495,000 active soldiers and 342,000 reserve soldiers. Thats NOT including the Navy, The Air Force OR the Marines. This is laughable.
    And what's your point?

    Quote Originally Posted by martyr3810
    Thats not a war, thats a political statement with military training and profit.
    What profit? Every day the US is losing billions of dollars in Iraq.

  4. #44
    Nighthawk18 is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    whether the oil production is less then pre-war doesnt matter if usa has control over it, they still have te oil
    If uve gotta draw the line sumwhere, make sure its drawn in pencil

  5. #45
    rabidfuzzybunny is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by martyr3810 View Post
    Thats not a war, thats a political statement with military training and profit.
    The Iraq war is also serving to lure islamic extremists throughout the middle east out of hiding and into Iraq, where the US military is waiting and prepared to deal with them. Sometimes I wonder how much of this is purely by accident.

  6. #46
    Miles Edgeworth is offline Senior Member Regular
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    These wars create extremists. It's pretty dumb to think that all these suicide bombers are just a bunch of religious fanatics. They're people who have lost just about everything, and are really pissed (pissed off enough to blow themselve up for the sake of revenge). Don't think people enjoy blowing themselves up. We're all human, and we don't like blowing our selves up. So there's a reason behind all the violence, and that's just more violence. Now really, I wonder how many more "extremists" were born after what Israel just did in lebanon. And how many are being born everyday in places like Iraq. And when I say born, I don't mean babies, I mean people who decided it's time to blow themselves up.

    Oh, and btw, the USA is screwed in Iraq. It will happen in our lifetimes, just wait and see. USA and Israel wiped out completely. They're sitting on top of an active volcano over there, and it will be sudden and unexpected when it erupts, throwing off all their calculations and predictions of the outcome. If you ask me, the politians know they're screwed over there, but they're pocketing the money, so who gives a damn? So yeah, they got the oil, or stole it more like, but have the prices gotten better for the US citizens? I don't think so, and you just wait and see. When bush is out of office, the fuel prices will go back down. Just like how they rose and went back down when his gay father was president.
    Last edited by Miles Edgeworth; 10-21-2006 at 10:30 AM.

    ^Me after watching Spirited Away, because I discovered the best movie ever!
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  7. #47
    FatRules is offline Member Newbie
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nighthawk18 View Post
    uhh... either allah or mohamed (cant remeber which though i think its mohamed) told them to spread islam by the sword... thats not very peaceful
    thats BS, big big BS, the way of spreading the islam was, is and willl always be a good example as a muslim and a human, doing ones best to help all people !

    The prophet of the islam invited every country he could reach with his messengers to islam, they only fought to protect themselves.

    you shouldn't believe what anybody tells you about islam, ask some philisophy proffesors (yes, you have to go to a university) that spend efforts on the orient about islamic thoughts. believe what these are telling you! (by the way, thats what i did, south korean Professor whose name i'm incapable of writing sorry)
    Last edited by FatRules; 10-21-2006 at 11:19 AM.


  8. #48
    Miles Edgeworth is offline Senior Member Regular
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    Yeah, another thing. Just about everything the media spreads about Islam is BS really. You need to find a proper source of information before making conclusions about the religion, and the extremely biased media doesn't count. The whole "ZOMG mohamed is a warlord" thing is crap. Read a proper book on Islam and it would tell you that you don't spread islam by the sword, and they don't come much more peaceful than Mohamed was.

    ^Me after watching Spirited Away, because I discovered the best movie ever!
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  9. #49
    martyr3810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saizou View Post
    You are losing. You have failed to achieve any meaningful strategic goal, the war is pinning down the US army, and the occupation is an enormous financial drain. What have you got in return? Nothing at all.

    What oil? The Iraqi oil production is actually down from pre-war levels.

    What point?

    Am I wrong in assuming that you don't value human life very highly?

    And what's your point?

    What profit? Every day the US is losing billions of dollars in Iraq.
    You sir are a fool. Strategic objective : Stop or at least contain terrorism in the middle east - you don't see them fucking with shit nearly as much outside their little raggedy ass realm now do you?
    Strategic objective: Kill as many of them (terrorists) as we can manage (last I checked they were doing a great deal more dying than we were)

    Iraqi production is down from pre-war levels, but NOW we're getting ALL of it. Which is more than our alloted portion pre-war.

    Your quite right, I don't value human life very highly, do you want to know why? Cause its cheap. Do you know how easy it is to kill someone? Do you know how many someone's there are? Do you know what is at the root of the world's current and future problems? Theres too damn many of us - and we're only increasing.

    As to your last two, I made my point, you just have to... read and think. Which seems to be I admit, a stretch, for your little conformist mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miles Edgeworth View Post
    These wars create extremists. It's pretty dumb to think that all these suicide bombers are just a bunch of religious fanatics. They're people who have lost just about everything, and are really pissed (pissed off enough to blow themselve up for the sake of revenge). Don't think people enjoy blowing themselves up. We're all human, and we don't like blowing our selves up. So there's a reason behind all the violence, and that's just more violence. Now really, I wonder how many more "extremists" were born after what Israel just did in lebanon. And how many are being born everyday in places like Iraq. And when I say born, I don't mean babies, I mean people who decided it's time to blow themselves up.

    Oh, and btw, the USA is screwed in Iraq. It will happen in our lifetimes, just wait and see. USA and Israel wiped out completely. They're sitting on top of an active volcano over there, and it will be sudden and unexpected when it erupts, throwing off all their calculations and predictions of the outcome. If you ask me, the politians know they're screwed over there, but they're pocketing the money, so who gives a damn? So yeah, they got the oil, or stole it more like, but have the prices gotten better for the US citizens? I don't think so, and you just wait and see. When bush is out of office, the fuel prices will go back down. Just like how they rose and went back down when his gay father was president.
    You! Educated person! Use your head for thinking, not for spouting crap. I'm not entirely sure where to begin making fun of you. They blow themselves up because they've lost everything and are pissed? Hello? Stupid? Anyone home? Because there are people like that the world over and you don't see THEM suicide bombing. THOSE people do suicide bombings because their religion tells them they'll go to heaven doing it.

    And I'm sorry but... we don't have enough invested over there to BE screwed or have our predictions/calculations thrown off like that. On top of that, Israel held out against all these people for years - before we even did more than just support them economically, the only REAL threat they still had was the Iraqi army... which is now basically neutralized.

    Let me tell you a little story, a few years ago the Mossad (and if you don't know who they are, stop reading because your ignorant) found that Iraq was building one of those monster guns you saw at the end of WWII(you know, v3 style - the ones that can lob shells hundreds of miles) What did Israel do? They just bombed it. They didn't ask for help, didn't send a warning, they just sent planes over (planes we gave them) and bombed the fuck out of it.

    I know this because a friend of mine was WORKING in Saudi Arabia... and its all they could talk about for a while. And they were pissed, cause its Israel and the jews and all that... but you know why they were mostly pissed? Cause they know there wasn't a damn thing "they" (the muslim world) could do about it. Israel is high handed - because Israel is in a position to be high-handed.

    You think they're unstable? I think you underestimate their position. They are the ONLY ones in the region with ANY kind of standing military left - and on top of that they have U.S. backing both economically, politically and militarily.

    P.S. I concede the point on the oil prices however as that market has always had a boom/bust cycle and I have been told as much by my family that works in the Oil industry - but at least the prices won't be because of our lack of supply - but rather our companies gouging us.

  10. #50
    Saizou is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Quote Originally Posted by martyr3810 View Post
    You sir are a fool. Strategic objective : Stop or at least contain terrorism in the middle east - you don't see them fucking with shit nearly as much outside their little raggedy ass realm now do you?
    Which has failed. Al-Quaida are still around, and they're getting stronger daily. And the terrorists have demonstrated that they are capable of striking targets outside the middle east. You might remember the London subway bombings.

    Quote Originally Posted by martyr3810
    Strategic objective: Kill as many of them (terrorists) as we can manage (last I checked they were doing a great deal more dying than we were).
    And the insurgents can afford to die is far greater numbers than you can. Again, this is an excellent parallel to Vietnam, which you obviously have failed to notice. The bottom line is that focusing on merely killing your enemy doesn't work when you face an guerilla force.

    Quote Originally Posted by martyr3810
    Iraqi production is down from pre-war levels, but NOW we're getting ALL of it. Which is more than our alloted portion pre-war.
    Not quite. The additional costs of maintaining an occupation force lead to an net financial loss for the US. The only ones benefiting from all of this are a few big corporations.

    Quote Originally Posted by martyr3810
    Your quite right, I don't value human life very highly, do you want to know why? Cause its cheap. Do you know how easy it is to kill someone? Do you know how many someone's there are? Do you know what is at the root of the world's current and future problems? Theres too damn many of us - and we're only increasing.
    Right. And if this is true, why would we want to stop terrorism anyway? Aren't they doing a splendid job at population control?

    Quote Originally Posted by martyr3810
    As to your last two, I made my point, you just have to... read and think. Which seems to be I admit, a stretch, for your little conformist mind.
    Conformist? Me? I'm not the one mindlessly repeating republican propaganda.

 

 
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