Page 10 of 10 FirstFirst ... 8910
Results 91 to 100 of 100
  1. #91
    otacu is offline Senior Member Well Known
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    270

    Default

    I partially agree with Shamqi but i'm more drastic.... i consider the whole trio of "supporter" charachters of Ichigo (Ishida, Orihime and Chad) completely trash, underdeveloped and misused as in these last 214 chapters. As it is now it's complete crap but i think i will elaborate better in a longer post.

    Shamqi has faith that KT will do something about this... i'm not so sure, i mean 200 chapters have passed and i hardly saw good things about these three charachters.

    My personal opinion too is that Orihime has feelings for Ichigo.... but Bleach being a super-cliched shounen and KT being imo strangely afraid of man-woman relationships (the theme of Romance or Love is only a touched on the surface.... pure friendship is taking the main focus) i don't think Orihime-Ichigo will go anywhere. It's already hinted that Orihime has NO chances and Ichigo is just ignoring her.... and that's the worst thing.

    In the future i'm curious to see what role will have Orihime cause as of now she was completely useless. Not as a fighter as a charachter. She didn't say or do something of relevance. She didn't have any influence on Ichigo or other charachters. I'm not saying she is weak.... she just is useless it's different.

    If you read Berserk you see how Farneze is weak but has her role... has her moments. She has a meaning. Orihime is just "walking breasts that cooks strange food".
    It's not a comparison between Berserk and Bleach of course (heh!) i only want to point out that it's not necessary to have power to be useful and have a role in a story. I'm saying this because i think KT is realising that he has done a crappy work with Orihimi (and co.) and maybe he is thinking to solve the problem with just a power up (as always)...

  2. #92
    Shamgi is offline Senior Member Respected Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    461

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by otacu
    I partially agree with Shamqi but i'm more drastic.... i consider the whole trio of "supporter" charachters of Ichigo (Ishida, Orihime and Chad) completely trash, underdeveloped and misused as in these last 214 chapters. As it is now it's complete crap but i think i will elaborate better in a longer post.

    Shamqi has faith that KT will do something about this... i'm not so sure, i mean 200 chapters have passed and i hardly saw good things about these three charachters.

    My personal opinion too is that Orihime has feelings for Ichigo.... but Bleach being a super-cliched shounen and KT being imo strangely afraid of man-woman relationships (the theme of Romance or Love is only a touched on the surface.... pure friendship is taking the main focus) i don't think Orihime-Ichigo will go anywhere. It's already hinted that Orihime has NO chances and Ichigo is just ignoring her.... and that's the worst thing.

    In the future i'm curious to see what role will have Orihime cause as of now she was completely useless. Not as a fighter as a charachter. She didn't say or do something of relevance. She didn't have any influence on Ichigo or other charachters. I'm not saying she is weak.... she just is useless it's different.

    If you read Berserk you see how Farneze is weak but has her role... has her moments. She has a meaning. Orihime is just "walking breasts that cooks strange food".
    It's not a comparison between Berserk and Bleach of course (heh!) i only want to point out that it's not necessary to have power to be useful and have a role in a story. I'm saying this because i think KT is realising that he has done a crappy work with Orihimi (and co.) and maybe he is thinking to solve the problem with just a power up (as always)...

    1. Farnaze has her moments because she's both deeply disturbed, attracted, and threatened by Guts and she has no damn idea how to deal with that. She's just a loon, and I'm suprised she actually lives though this whole thing(only on chapter 150 something at this point, but for some real she does scream "I live!"). Unless I'm thinking of the wrong girl.

    I'm more prone to have some faith in KT, because he's seeming to actually not only create some modivation for the characters to become stronger in general(and thus get some real screentime), but he's also removing alot of his characters, nearly all of the SS group(save for the ones who have the most revealence to the current happenings, save Ikkaru and the other dude, who both have the mysterious powers going). Even the introduction of the vizards is mostly for the sake of Ichigo. He's also slowing down a little, or it feels like it to me, so we may see more development.

    In all honesty, the first 200 chapters of this story are rushed like hell in general. I'm half thinking KT just wanted to get all these introductions and major plot buildup out of the way(After all, until past the SS arc, we never had a real badguy) So he could start the real meat of his story. Fine and dandy, but it's a hell of alot of material to just rush through.

  3. #93
    redrum305 is offline Senior Member Respected Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    457

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Shamgi
    1. Farnaze has her moments because she's both deeply disturbed, attracted, and threatened by Guts and she has no damn idea how to deal with that. She's just a loon, and I'm suprised she actually lives though this whole thing(only on chapter 150 something at this point, but for some real she does scream "I live!"). Unless I'm thinking of the wrong girl.

    I'm more prone to have some faith in KT, because he's seeming to actually not only create some modivation for the characters to become stronger in general(and thus get some real screentime), but he's also removing alot of his characters, nearly all of the SS group(save for the ones who have the most revealence to the current happenings, save Ikkaru and the other dude, who both have the mysterious powers going). Even the introduction of the vizards is mostly for the sake of Ichigo. He's also slowing down a little, or it feels like it to me, so we may see more development.

    In all honesty, the first 200 chapters of this story are rushed like hell in general. I'm half thinking KT just wanted to get all these introductions and major plot buildup out of the way(After all, until past the SS arc, we never had a real badguy) So he could start the real meat of his story. Fine and dandy, but it's a hell of alot of material to just rush through.
    I mostly agree with Otacu because having a power upgrade doesn't really mean character development. In almost every anime/manga, the main character always has a female counterpart or partner and Ichigo already has Rukia. I don't think that KT will go with the Ichigo-Orihime partner up because it wouldn't make sense, that will totally go against his main story plot.

    Also one power up too many fucks up a manga or anime, we've seen that with DBZ where they basically ran out of ideas and the unbelieve super powers were just made it boring. It still remained a popular anime/manga because of the young audience like children to junior middle schoolers because I for myself was already fed up with it. Now, Just like Otacu said farneze is really weak but she has role in Berserk, she is not useless. also we have to admit the hairpins powers of Orihime are really corny, even though the healing thing and blocking thing is straight the way hairpins become the fairies is really lame.

    To make it even more simple, Orihime is Just like KAZUMI in Shakugan no shana. Where the plot is about Yuuji and Shana, and Kazumi just happens to like Yuuji but he already has Shana and we all know how that will turn out. About Chad, i don't think Urahara will personnally train him, i think most likely it will be that old dude with the weird mustache.

  4. #94
    ducttaperofdoom is offline Senior Member Well Known
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    ... ...? ...! ...? ...
    Posts
    342

    Default

    One of the big themes of this manga is friendship. Ichigo didn't just go to SS because he had to pay her (Rukia) back, they were friends. There's the Hinamori/Hitsugaya friendship, Gin/Matsumoto, Renji/Rukia, Ichigo/Rukia, Chad/Ichigo, etc. I don't think that KT is going to stick in too much romance (read: none at all involving the main group). Orihime is in love with Ichigo (that's how I've read it), but nothings going to happen out of it.

    What Shamgi has said makes alot of sense, and I agree with most of it, but I think that it doesn't seemed as rushed as you make it out to be. When I read bleach, during the SS arch I assumed that they would save Rukia, kill Gin (I assumed he was the bad guy then and Hitsugaya (thought he was in league with Gin)) and then have some other arch and then the manga would end/have another arch. I never thought that he would keep all these people alive and suddenly introduce this Aizen thing.

    What DOES seem rushed to me was the Aizen part. I don't think there was any indication or foreshadowing at all to a bigger force (Aizen/the hyougouslkdslfle) behind this all (except that small part with Grand Fisher). Simply, I thought Gin and Hitsugaya were going to kill everyone for the some wierd reason. I didn't think Hitsugaya was evil because of the Aizen-letter though (I thought he was before hand).

  5. #95
    Shamgi is offline Senior Member Respected Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    461

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by redrum305
    I mostly agree with Otacu because having a power upgrade doesn't really mean character development. In almost every anime/manga, the main character always has a female counterpart or partner and Ichigo already has Rukia. I don't think that KT will go with the Ichigo-Orihime partner up because it wouldn't make sense, that will totally go against his main story plot.

    Also one power up too many fucks up a manga or anime, we've seen that with DBZ where they basically ran out of ideas and the unbelieve super powers were just made it boring. It still remained a popular anime/manga because of the young audience like children to junior middle schoolers because I for myself was already fed up with it. Now, Just like Otacu said farneze is really weak but she has role in Berserk, she is not useless. also we have to admit the hairpins powers of Orihime are really corny, even though the healing thing and blocking thing is straight the way hairpins become the fairies is really lame.

    To make it even more simple, Orihime is Just like KAZUMI in Shakugan no shana. Where the plot is about Yuuji and Shana, and Kazumi just happens to like Yuuji but he already has Shana and we all know how that will turn out. About Chad, i don't think Urahara will personnally train him, i think most likely it will be that old dude with the weird mustache.

    You are quite right, normal powerups don't make for real character development. However, they allow for character development as the character goes through the powerup, and they're a good way to show them grow as a character as they grow in power.

    And unlike in DBZ, there's quite a bit of development towards Orihime's and Chad's powerups. Neither one is just getting stronger for the sake of keeping them in the show, both have powerful reasons to do so. Chad sees the core of his relationship with Ichigo, perhaps the strongest bond he holds currently, disappearing with Ichigo's increase in power, Chad can no longer fight along side Ichigo. Orihime is in a simmlar position. As I've said dozens of times, she dispises herself for her own inability to fight, and even defend herself, and this feeling is magnified greatly by the fact that Ichigo is blaming himself her injuries, something she hates more than anything, and the fact that she can't even cheer him up as a friend is the final nail in the coffin, especially since Rukia succeeded where she failed. Her drive to be worthwhile to Ichigo as a friend is going to be the source of her development, more than likely to strengthen her will against her enemies.

    I still want to know where you guys get any real basis for Orihime being in love with Ichigo. Sure, she likes him, and she looks up to him greatly, but I don't really see how you consider it love. Especially in a manga that has so little focus and almost no reference to love between characters.

  6. #96
    shahrizal is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Somewhere I belong
    Posts
    838

    Default

    Rukia seems to be very cold to Ichigo and said tat it is Ichigo's fault 2 get hurt. Huh? Very cold, isn't it? May be Ichigo got that blow and go find some place to calm down, yet, he chose Wizards' hideout. I wonder what is on his mind.

  7. #97
    otacu is offline Senior Member Well Known
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    270

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Shamgi
    1. Farnaze has her moments because she's both deeply disturbed, attracted, and threatened by Guts and she has no damn idea how to deal with that. She's just a loon, and I'm suprised she actually lives though this whole thing(only on chapter 150 something at this point, but for some real she does scream "I live!"). Unless I'm thinking of the wrong girl.
    Well, Farneze is more than that. She is trying to change herself and find a direction in her life. Why is she living? ... is what she always asks herself. She is finding an answer traveling with Guts. And Guts too is gaining from Farneze and Serpico.... not much in term of power but in term of human relationships. There was a beautyful panel where he said "Comrades, huh?" meaning that Farneze & co are his new companions and are giving him his new "home" after the band of the hawk. That's more than enough. Farneze is doing her work.

    P.s. I didn't see similarities with Shakugan no Shana but i have to admit there are many common points with the main three charachters.

    Orihime isn't doing a good job because she is just a tool. She isn't searching herself or having a purpose on her own... she just want to be useful to Ichigo. I'm not saying that this isn't a good reason to try to become stronger ... is just lame. To become stronger just for the sake of helping the main charachter is clichè and i hardly call this "charachter development". Not only that but even Chad is doing that for the same exact reason. He want to help Ichigo.... yaaawwwn boring. Ishida at least is becoming stronger out of pride ... on the surface. But depth inside him i fear he is just doing this cause he wants to help Ichigo too. It's not clear now.... but i hope i'm wrong.

    This three charachter are flat and not interesting. Seems to me that they only exist for the sake of Ichigo... they don't stand on their own. Other shounen manga have done better what Bleach is failing to do: to have true support charachter and not simply flat fighters. Rukia was the perfect support charachter, she was very well done BEFORE the SS. She was the perfect partner for Ichigo they had a true "shonen" relationship. But it all went wasted in the SS arc where Rukia disappeared as a charachter and lost her role. Now she is trying to come back but i'm still wondering if KT will be able to make her do a come back.

    And that lead to us to another reason of why the Lame Trio (Orihime, Chad and Ishida) is doing bad. Bleach is Ichigo-focused (too much for my taste imo but that's not the problem).... and Ichigo is simply ignoring them. He is just in another world. Yes, he talk to them but he is not "involved" with them. It's more like "huh? You, are still around?" "Nice Weather today". Orihime is obsessed by Ichigo, Chad want to become stronger and keep on fighting with Ichgio, Ishida seems to see Ichigo as his rival.... and Ichigo? well, he doesn't give a damn about them. Who cares? He is just focused on Rukia and himself. During the SS he was frantically serching for Rukia nothing else. He wasn't interested in what the others were doing or if they were safe. He only wanted to became stronger and save Rukia. The others didn't matter.
    It's a one way relationship. They are not companions. It's just the trio chasing after Ichigo in a similar way as Goku in dragonball... and the others wanted to become stronger and help him. But they were on two different levels.

    Power up don't make charachters... relationships do. Other manga are doing or have done what Bleach imo is failing to do: develop and creating charachters with depth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shamgi
    In all honesty, the first 200 chapters of this story are rushed like hell in general. I'm half thinking KT just wanted to get all these introductions and major plot buildup out of the way(After all, until past the SS arc, we never had a real badguy) So he could start the real meat of his story. Fine and dandy, but it's a hell of alot of material to just rush through.
    I myself don't fell like the first 200 chapters are rushed... but for the opposite reason. I fell like KT crammed the chapters with too much unnecessary charachters only for the sake of the fans resulting in cool looking but flat charachters. There is too few space for everyone to have his moment to shine but most of them don't have a real role in the story. The story itself is quite simple in the SS arc: Ichigo (and not the Lame Trio) saves Rukia. There are some important key point along the way but most of charachters are just added to water down the soup. Especially the Lame Trio accomplished nothing in the SS arc. Ichigo was the only protagonist.
    And because of this arc now we have an army of charachters that scream for some development and to surpass the "flat charachter" level. We have only been introduced to Mayuri, Kenpachi, Konamura, Hitsugaya,Ukitate, Shunsui....and the list can go on(leave alone the VC!). They cannot be left as they are now, they are all incomplete. Only Byakuya has received a sort of development/conclusion. All the rest desperately need something.... and we are at chapter214.... how long will be Bleach? KT imo has lost focus introducing too many incomplete charachters and subplots. Now time and space are lacking. Especially if we consider that i'm 90% sure that there will at least another arc after Aizen to deal with Hollows and to deal with a completely ignored theme of the last 150 chapters.... Ichigo's mother. It was introduced as a focal element early in the manga and now everyone (Ichigo too) has forgot about it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shamgi
    I still want to know where you guys get any real basis for Orihime being in love with Ichigo. Sure, she likes him, and she looks up to him greatly, but I don't really see how you consider it love. Especially in a manga that has so little focus and almost no reference to love between characters
    There is no clear basis to that(as there is no clear basis to her just liking him). You are completely right. I just think that she loves him and admire him and given that Bleach has little focus on romance it's not even important to decide if Orihime loves him or is just looking up to him. The result is the same.

    As always... just my opinion.
    Last edited by otacu; 02-16-2006 at 01:44 AM.

  8. #98
    Shamgi is offline Senior Member Respected Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    461

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by otacu
    Well, Farneze is more than that. She is trying to change herself and find a direction in her life. Why is she living? ... is what she always asks herself. She is finding an answer traveling with Guts. And Guts too is gaining from Farneze and Serpico.... not much in term of power but in term of human relationships. There was a beautyful panel where he said "Comrades, huh?" meaning that Farneze & co are his new companions and are giving him his new "home" after the band of the hawk. That's more than enough. Farneze is doing her work.
    Now that I'm more caught up, I agree with you much more(thank god for that, you would have spoiled it for me if not). Berserk has changed drastically in order to create alot more development for everyone involved, and it's certainly an interesting series. Of course, it's also got that terror of death hanging over every characters head, so that makes development all the better.

    Edit: Now, if only L were here. He'd yell at us for being off topic, I'd make some stupid and inane point to argue with him, he'd get all pissed, and then I could keep saying the same damn thing over and over and watch him bite every time. Man, he was always good for a laugh.

    Quote Originally Posted by otacu
    Orihime isn't doing a good job because she is just a tool. She isn't searching herself or having a purpose on her own... she just want to be useful to Ichigo. I'm not saying that this isn't a good reason to try to become stronger ... is just lame. To become stronger just for the sake of helping the main charachter is clichè and i hardly call this "charachter development". Not only that but even Chad is doing that for the same exact reason. He want to help Ichigo.... yaaawwwn boring. Ishida at least is becoming stronger out of pride ... on the surface. But depth inside him i fear he is just doing this cause he wants to help Ichigo too. It's not clear now.... but i hope i'm wrong.
    The real benefit I can see from Orihime is that with the addition of Tatsuki to the character lineup, she'll be able to interact with some more independence of Ichigo. Otherwise, I'm pretty much in agreement, especially since compared to the other characters, Orihime doesn't know Ichigo all that well.

    Quote Originally Posted by otacu
    This three charachter are flat and not interesting. Seems to me that they only exist for the sake of Ichigo... they don't stand on their own. Other shounen manga have done better what Bleach is failing to do: to have true support charachter and not simply flat fighters. Rukia was the perfect support charachter, she was very well done BEFORE the SS. She was the perfect partner for Ichigo they had a true "shonen" relationship. But it all went wasted in the SS arc where Rukia disappeared as a charachter and lost her role. Now she is trying to come back but i'm still wondering if KT will be able to make her do a come back.
    I had hoped for Rukia to stay out of the picture longer, or as you said, change her role. She seems to have taken less of a support character role, but it's hard to judge at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by otacu
    And that lead to us to another reason of why the Lame Trio (Orihime, Chad and Ishida) is doing bad. Bleach is Ichigo-focused (too much for my taste imo but that's not the problem).... and Ichigo is simply ignoring them. He is just in another world. Yes, he talk to them but he is not "involved" with them. It's more like "huh? You, are still around?" "Nice Weather today". Orihime is obsessed by Ichigo, Chad want to become stronger and keep on fighting with Ichgio, Ishida seems to see Ichigo as his rival.... and Ichigo? well, he doesn't give a damn about them. Who cares? He is just focused on Rukia and himself. During the SS he was frantically serching for Rukia nothing else. He wasn't interested in what the others were doing or if they were safe. He only wanted to became stronger and save Rukia. The others didn't matter.
    It's a one way relationship. They are not companions. It's just the trio chasing after Ichigo in a similar way as Goku in dragonball... and the others wanted to become stronger and help him. But they were on two different levels.
    Chad's perhaps the only character who's relationship with Ichigo I like, but his is much more established than the others(not saying much) still, I kind of like his friendship. He's the only character I who will continued to stay completly tied to Ichigo through the story, and while you may think it makes him flat, I kind of like it, especially since they make it pretty clear that's the reason. There's no false buildups or attempts to make the friendship something else, Chad fights with Ichigo just because that's what they decided to do, and they'll risk even death to keep that friendship alive. Personal preference, I guess, I normally can't stand the relationships like that for the same reason as you.

    Quote Originally Posted by otacu
    Power up don't make charachters... relationships do. Other manga are doing or have done what Bleach imo is failing to do: develop and creating charachters with depth.
    What I mean about the power ups providing changes for development is the fact that they'll be conducted completly seperatly from Ichigo, he'll take a backseat role. As long as we see some real development from the characters themselves in the course of the powerups, I'll be fine with it.

    But yea, this is the first time in general we're going to see Chad, Orihime, Ishida, Tatsuki, Keigo, and the others on their on, without Ichigo's presense hanging over them. So long as we don't focus on Ichigo's training to much and force the other characters out, we may see the characters gain some real development.

    Quote Originally Posted by otacu
    I myself don't fell like the first 200 chapters are rushed... but for the opposite reason. I fell like KT crammed the chapters with too much unnecessary charachters only for the sake of the fans resulting in cool looking but flat charachters. There is too few space for everyone to have his moment to shine but most of them don't have a real role in the story. The story itself is quite simple in the SS arc: Ichigo (and not the Lame Trio) saves Rukia. There are some important key point along the way but most of charachters are just added to water down the soup. Especially the Lame Trio accomplished nothing in the SS arc. Ichigo was the only protagonist.
    And because of this arc now we have an army of charachters that scream for some development and to surpass the "flat charachter" level. We have only been introduced to Mayuri, Kenpachi, Konamura, Hitsugaya,Ukitate, Shunsui....and the list can go on(leave alone the VC!). They cannot be left as they are now, they are all incomplete. Only Byakuya has received a sort of development/conclusion. All the rest desperately need something.... and we are at chapter214.... how long will be Bleach? KT imo has lost focus introducing too many incomplete charachters and subplots. Now time and space are lacking. Especially if we consider that i'm 90% sure that there will at least another arc after Aizen to deal with Hollows and to deal with a completely ignored theme of the last 150 chapters.... Ichigo's mother. It was introduced as a focal element early in the manga and now everyone (Ichigo too) has forgot about it.
    That's what I mean by rushed. To many characters, events, and twists have occured in such a short time, the beginning of the series feels nothing like the latest events. It's altered so much it's unbelieveable, and it's again changing itself by redrawing the lines between both the characters and the major powers, creating another strange situtation.

    Of course, the one difference here is that he's actually lowered all number of characters in the series and divided them up on their own goals, though they remain pretty well linked, the characters are going to (hopefully) stay split for a while.

    Quote Originally Posted by otacu
    There is no clear basis to that(as there is no clear basis to her just liking him). You are completely right. I just think that she loves him and admire him and given that Bleach has little focus on romance it's not even important to decide if Orihime loves him or is just looking up to him. The result is the same.

    As always... just my opinion.
    I just don't see the normal "love" moments in the show. The only real emotional scene that's involved Ichigo is the latest one with the reappearence of Rukia and the deepening of her sadness, almost everything else has stayed much to in line of them being close friends for me to let a single scene, driving as it is, to change that.
    Last edited by Shamgi; 02-16-2006 at 09:52 AM.

  9. #99
    aevi is offline Junior Member Newbie
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    21

    Default

    Out of all the characters Ichigo is far more developed than others in term of character-wise, but it is through the support of lesser characters, such as the 'lame trio', that allowed these character traits found in Ichigo to shine through.

    and i dont think Ichigo is ignoring his friend, have you forgotten that friendship is very important to him. i believe its more like his selfish, he wants to protect his friends hence he doesnt want them to worry about his internal struggle with his darker side. even though it is obvious to the others that he majorily struggling.

    and all u guys, make love sound like its "EVIL" or something. like if ichigo does happen to fall in love - it makes his character weak. or is that a jap thing?!? lol. either way it just adds another element to Ichigo. And u cant deny that his has feeling for Rukia, personally if he had to choose who he has to fall for, it be someone who could support him the most in terms of power and character development, and Orihime being the weak ass as she is, cannot support him in the way Rukia can. AND yes, this makes her jealous/envy of what she would like to have with Ichigo.

    Anyway, hopefully the story does happen to slow down to further the characters into something more brighter and stronger, before it hits the pinnacle point of the war against Aizen.

  10. #100
    jettneko is offline Junior Member Newbie
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Windy and frozen SE Idaho
    Posts
    16

    Default Ch. 214 left me so excited for the next!

    Pain. Fear. Doubt. Lack of self-confidence. Inability to control something potentially dangerous. These are all reasons why a person chooses to do something that might not be the right way to go. Reading this chapter raises many questions. Will Chad regret the request he made to Urahara? Will Ishida regret turning his back on his friends to regain his powers? Is Ichigo changing "sides"? Or just going to ask for advice on how to control his hollow (that is, if they'd actually help him without a price)? This chapter was a very fast read for me. The action moved me along and before I knew it, I had finished the chapter. All of these questions bring me to one final question that was going on in my mind. Will all their choices make any difference when Aizen's army decides to make their move? Only TiteKubo knows for sure, I guess.

 

 
Page 10 of 10 FirstFirst ... 8910

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
vBulletin Skin by: ForumThemes.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.0
Copyright © 2014 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79