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  1. #11
    aeturnus is offline Junior Member Newbie
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    [QUOTE=jhodder;721960] Vastro Lorde is referring to an evolution of a hollow who has eaten enough souls to take on a human shape, and gain power beyond that of a Captain. While Ichigo's Hollow has both the shape and power, he is still not a Vastro Lorde, because he has never eaten souls. As such, he is simply classified as a Hollow. /QUOTE]

    It seems that hollows and shinigami are something like two sides to the same coin, and the hougyoku just makes the transition easier/more effective. A soul can get stronger one way or another. They can do it alone (via training, etc.) or consuming another's spiritual power. On one hand, there may be a possibility that consuming another soul is necessary for the hollow to classify as one or another, but it sounds like consuming a soul is just another way of raising spiritual power. Once they reach a certain level of power, they can do new things, like ban kai or compressing themselves down to a smaller form.

    Also, I-Ichigo said he was Zangetsu. It makes the most sense that shinigami, zanpakuto spirit, and the hollow parts of a person are just different faces of the person's mind/personality/power. Some sides get more developed than the others; the shinigami separate the animal side and the hollows embrace it.

    It's much more like schools of martial arts than different species. Everyone does very similar things for the same purposes (sonído≈shunpo≈hirenkyaku) . The details, names and flourishes are different, but it looks like a skilled practitioner can learn the other's moves with enough work. The hougyoku may just be spiritual steroids... One of the main aspects of 'enlightenment' in buddhism and hinduism is the realization that one is not really separate from everything else in the world, so it's a far smaller jump to assume that everything inside your own head is all the same person, even if you have arguments :P.

  2. #12
    jhodder is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azrael_13 View Post
    And constantly 'eating' a shinigami's heightening power isn't enough to advance to a highly evolved level? If Ichigo's power level is at a captain's level, then his hollow which is more powerful than him is above a captain's strength. All natural Vast lords are, are hollows that have been eating the lesser powers of other menos. Menos are combinations of hundreds of weak hollows. and then so on. if a regular weak hollow ate someone like Ichigo over and over, it could rival a vast lord in due time.

    remember that Ichigo hasn't developed an ability to control his actual level of power yet, so we really don't know what level his hollow has been bathing in
    I should clarify. Vastro Lorde need to eat other Hollows to evolve, as the Manga has told us, and Ichigo has never eaten another Hollow to be sure(would be interesting to see that happen) Hollows start to cannibalize each other when they reach the level of a Gillian, and do that ion order to become an Adjuchas, and presumably a Vastro Lorde as well. If one does not do so, then they are simply a regular Hollow, even one as powerful as Ichigo.
    His newest transformation could be seen simply like a resurreccion; rather then fully transform his body to Hollow, it did so only with the necessary portions, stream lining the form and expending less energy forming useless body parts. It is similar to the concept of atrophy in humans. This is partly theoretical, but some evidence has been brought forth to back up a lot of it.

  3. #13
    Yazen is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    The manga only told us what soul society already knew. They don't know much about vizards and arrancars anyways other than "omg they look human/hollow!' For all we know he IS a vastolorde. Who cares about eating souls and whatnot to evolve.

  4. #14
    jhodder is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yazen View Post
    The manga only told us what soul society already knew. They don't know much about vizards and arrancars anyways other than "omg they look human/hollow!' For all we know he IS a vastolorde. Who cares about eating souls and whatnot to evolve.
    No, the point I am making is that he is NOT a Vastro Lorde because he does not meet the requirements to be called one. He didn't go through the cannibalization process to become a Vastro Lorde, thus he is not one. Additionally, it was not Soul Society that said this; it was covered in Grimmjow's background, where we saw him trying to reach that level, and not making it.
    Everyone wants to say Hollow Ichigo is a Vastro Lorde because it would be cool, but he simply isn't. He is just a pure Hollow, albeit one as strong as a Vastro Lorde, but still only a standard Hollow. In that way, isn't that even better?

  5. #15
    Yazen is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Yes, we all know the point you're making. And I'm telling you that that is the only way Soul Society knows of. It showed in Grimmjow's background because that IS one of the ways yes. There is a variable though to making a Vastolorde. Something we don't know of. Otherwise Ulq and Grimmjow would've become Vastolorde. Ichigo's hollow is an anomaly, therefore he could very well be a vastolorde created through different means.

  6. #16
    Heartlessfang is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    ^ that logic doesn't work. especially since there's no evidence that supports your "what if" point.

    Yazen-san, all you have to go on is: "SS might be wrong" rather than jhodder-san's point of "This is what the manga states."

    Until Kubo finally explains all of this, jhodder-san is right.

    "You have other hearts trapped within you as well, dont you?"
    "You're that guy from last time! What are you talking about?!"
    "The other Hearts within you."
    "Hearts trapped within me....?"

  7. #17
    Yazen is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    I did not say anyone was wrong. I said it's what we KNOW. chrissake

    OBVIOUSLY we are missing some very important piece that explains the power for Ichigo's hollow without being a cannibal.

  8. #18
    jhodder is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yazen View Post
    I did not say anyone was wrong. I said it's what we KNOW. chrissake

    OBVIOUSLY we are missing some very important piece that explains the power for Ichigo's hollow without being a cannibal.
    Maybe he is just powerful? We know that Ichigo's Shinigami powers are of the Captain level, and since his Hollow side was born at the same time, it stands to reason that his Hollow is at least that powerful. But his inner Hollow also has knowledge of how to use his Shinigami powers, as stated by him and Zangetsu being the same. Thus, Hollow Ichigo has the sum total power of an Espada-level Arrancar plus a Captain level Shinigami combined. That would explain why he is so powerful. Ichigo has only learned to augment his Shinigami powers using his mask, while the Vizard have displayed that they can use Hollow Powers; obviously the difference in power between Ichigo and his Hollow is simply due to a knowledge and skill gap.

  9. #19
    aeturnus is offline Junior Member Newbie
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    If a Vasto Lorde and Shinigami-captain-level are just considered a power level and set of skills, then Ichigo definitely possesses both sets. Becoming a Vasto Lorde isn't like receiving an awarded title from some governing body for hollows, it's just a class for power/abilities. Soul Society doesn't know a whole lot about Hueco Mundo and everything in it, so they probably just categorized based on the most common, naturally occurring process. If Ichigo can do all the things a Vasto Lorde (Arrancar) can

  10. #20
    Yazen is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Thank you aeturnus. At least someone can recognize that Soul Society was only knew the default means to being a vastolorde type. They only know of hollows being able to be that powerful through cannibalism

 

 
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