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  1. #51
    Deathbringerpt is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Damn....you´re almost as stubborn as Ikakku.


    Surprised at his strength maybe, but that's only logical because she felt the nature and pressure of his reiatsu, which she even stated was more of an Espada rather than a Shinigami. Now, why was she not as surprised when Yamamoto shot his fire and only stark was? I would put these two readings in a different context. The fact is, she was more surprised at Ichigo's Vaizard powers, which she didn't even know what to classify that as at that time, then she was more surprised as Ichigo's raw strength.
    You´re missing my point.

    It doesn´t matter which reason she was surprised about, i´m talking about traits of personality here. If Stark were the one to assist at Ichigo´s fight, he´d probably react the same way he did to Yama´s attack, would that make him weaker than Ichigo?

    Or by that logic you assume that the fact that both Barragan and Halibel are stronger than Yama for not being surprised at his attack?

    Hell, look at Stark´s reaction in the end of the chapter, the guy was sneezing, he sure dismissed his surprise pretty quick.

    Believe it or not, he does think about his rank and the situation, just as you said, not broad enough. Why would he want to be captain? Why did he kill the previous captain? Why did he then assume captain? That alone tells us that he cares about the captain rank.
    Because by being a Captain gives him a position where he can fights powerful people, he doesn´t care about his reputation, his looks and even his subordinates (To a lesser extent when he said that he would cut Yumichika and Ikkaku down if they bothered them in his fight against ), everything about Kenpachi revolves around fighting.

    You´re using his position to justify his actions which reveal his true character. He ultimately doesn´t care about law and order. It´s not his priority.

    It´s about having fighting and having fun. It´s as simple as that. You´re giving Kenpachi way to much credit.

    By finding and fighting them to near death, that's capture, and that is taking down main threats. He just kills two birds with one stone that way. Remember, his main objective was to capture the Ryoka and kill if necessary, not to just plainly kill them. The Ryoka were prime suspects in Aizen's death.
    And he released all of them, the suspects of Aizen´s death. You´re whole argument is a paradox.

    He breaks the law so he can follow orders?

    Dude, he broke them free to find Ichigo, to fight him again, not arrest them, not bringing him to authorities. Nothing of the sort.

    He. just. wanted. to. fight. him.


    Whether or not he obeyed that order to the letter, he obeyed it, which your argument was focused around saying he doesn't abide by the laws. The way he sees it, when he fights the strongest guys, he's accomplishing his objective and having his fun at the same time. Maybe he takes this to an extreme, but as I've said, he does abide by the laws and order just as much as any captain would.
    He released prisoners.

    He fought Captains that stopped him because of his initial felony and showed a disposition of killing both of them.

    How in holy hell can you believe the bolded part?

    And I'll restate it again, if they were a threat the second division would have taken them, and not just to take them to the Maggot's nest either.
    They were locked in a prison and chained with cuffs that negate all Reiatsu of the people chained with it.

    Now, this maybe just me but the fact they´re locked and treated in a way that they couldn´t use their powers strikes me as prisoners they don´t want to escape and cause any more Death God casualties.

    But lo and behold, Kenpachi doesn´t give a shit about that!

    But don´t worry, his motives are pure and unselfish! He´s here for the greater good!

    I´m sure he´ll put them right back on prison after he finds Ichigo.

    Oh wait.

    He stopped searching for Ichigo because he lost his fighting mood when Komamura went to help Yamamoto.

    He completely forgot about the prisoners he broke free.

    And then he went home to sit on his ass.

    What an amazing, law abiding, order obeying role model for Death Gods everywhere.

    Tousen stated that he didn't like him. There was no need for an assumption. It could have simply be put as "why did you free them?" However, Tousen took the battle stance immediately.

    Tousen stated specifically that Kenpachi was wrong when he assumed Tousen hated him. Read that again.

    Tousen was taking Kenpachi down because he always thought he was a loose canon, that he would follow by his fighting instincts first and his commitment to justice and peace second.

    Which it happened.

    Which was why they both attacked Kenpachi.

    Which Kenpachi went back at them just for the sake of fighting.

    No, they were all equally guilty in handling the situation.
    What?

    He's taking the easy way out because even if he gets defeated he can just say "oh replace me." He's taking the easy way out because it's easier for people not to notice him and lose, rather than defend with all the strength he possess, like Kenpachi. He's cowardly making up excuses to show true strength at the sign of adversity, and for what? Just so he can push himself a little harder? He wants to have the best time fighting but doesn't like to give it his all, but expects his opponent to (look back on the fight he had with Ichigo)? That is the meaning of cowardly.
    So, Ikkaku, who´s willing to fight to the death in any fight that he enters despite the fact that he handicaps himself and never gangs up on his enemies since he only enters 1 on 1 fights, is a coward?


    Yeah, he sure looked like a coward when he was bleeding all over himself, could barely stand up and still attacked Ichigo screaming like a mad person....

    You´re clutching to the term "hiding" and twisting his motives for his self imposed handicap so that you can call him a coward.

    He doesn't want to get promoted since he wants to die while serving Kenpachi.

    His objective in life is dying in battle....

    I seriously find it amazing that you consider him a coward.


    On another note, I had enough of this.

    When we´re not discussing Espada ranking which every argument related to it are based on speculation, we´re switching back and forth about character motivations and objectives which we obviously disagree upon.

    Let´s just agree to disagree.

  2. #52
    ranteil is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    I have to agree that Ikkaku is a bit of a coward though. It isn't based on his strength that I say this, nor what he has of combat prowess. What I'm talking about is all psychological. He is afraid of being promoted just because he won't be under Kenpachi, and thus hides his strength. He isn't willing to show it at all, unless he is garenteed a win with it and no one from S.S. can see it. Kenpachi proves to be diffrent by doing things he doesn't like to prove his strength, and he doesn't care who sees him. Thus Ikkaku is betraying what he wants to emulate, what he wants to be, and that is cowerdly.

  3. #53
    jonslaught is offline Senior Member Regular
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    bottomline for "who's the #1 Espada", we wouldn't know it yet until Kubo revealed it in the next chapters or so..


    Maybe Wonderweiss is the #1 Espada? And where the heck is Yammy? Remove the "0" on his tattoo, and BINGO! Yammy's #1!

  4. #54
    NoKnuckles is offline Senior Member Frequent Poster
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    Screw that, remove the 1 so that he becomes Espada #0, the espada that transcends all espada, the espada of 0

  5. #55
    DivineVTDragon is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathbringerpt View Post
    Damn....you´re almost as stubborn as Ikakku.
    Considering you're just as persistent, then I will be on that same level.

    You´re missing my point.

    It doesn´t matter which reason she was surprised about, i´m talking about traits of personality here. If Stark were the one to assist at Ichigo´s fight, he´d probably react the same way he did to Yama´s attack, would that make him weaker than Ichigo?

    Or by that logic you assume that the fact that both Barragan and Halibel are stronger than Yama for not being surprised at his attack?

    Hell, look at Stark´s reaction in the end of the chapter, the guy was sneezing, he sure dismissed his surprise pretty quick.
    That's two totally separate things. If Stark was there looking at Ichigo, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't say anything or look impressed either, just as how he didn't feel anything when Arroniero died. Like when he went to capture Orihime, he just had a stone cold face and whisked her away; none of his lazy humor, just pure business.

    By that logic, I'm stating their their personality for not being afraid may just be that, their personality. However, for Stark to be the ONLY one surprised, that may just show a sign that he's either worried somewhat, or he was caught off guard. Looks like a mixture of both. We haven't seen any personality from Halibel, and Barragan is a serious commander type, while Stark can be serious when it's time and is also lazy most times. From the situation, we I'm going to assume that he was quite serious.

    Stark was right next to the fire, he didn't sneeze, he was again, just surprised at it. Then I agree, he quickly became his lazy self when he found out he wasn't hit by the fire.

    Because by being a Captain gives him a position where he can fights powerful people, he doesn´t care about his reputation, his looks and even his subordinates (To a lesser extent when he said that he would cut Yumichika and Ikkaku down if they bothered them in his fight against ), everything about Kenpachi revolves around fighting.

    You´re using his position to justify his actions which reveal his true character. He ultimately doesn´t care about law and order. It´s not his priority.
    He can do all that even if he wasn't a captain. The only thing that he gains from being a captain is that he has a higher rank and authority, and paperwork. I never said anything about him caring about reputation or his subordinates, and as for him revolving around fighting, I will agree. However, you're not giving him the credit he deserves for being a captain, and to some extent following the rules (from time to time).

    If he had not cared about law and order, he would have went crazy and tried to fight the captains over and over. Why do you think he goes after ichigo and gang (Ryoka) the moment he heard they entered? Because he wanted to fight them, and because he wanted to quell the threat.

    And he released all of them, the suspects of Aizen´s death. You´re whole argument is a paradox.

    He breaks the law so he can follow orders?

    Dude, he broke them free to find Ichigo, to fight him again, not arrest them, not bringing him to authorities. Nothing of the sort.

    He. just. wanted. to. fight. him.
    There was ONE last Ryoka that wasn't a prisoner, and he only released the prisoners that were of no threat. It's like having a gun, moving some unarmed prisoners to tell them where the main guy was, and then herding them back quickly. There was a reason why he didn't fight any of the prisoners, they were of no threat to him and he could quickly just get them back if he wanted.

    Like I said before, he can have both of he found Ichigo, fighting and capture. Fighting is only ONE of the things he could have done.

    He released prisoners.

    He fought Captains that stopped him because of his initial felony and showed a disposition of killing both of them.

    How in holy hell can you believe the bolded part?
    Ok, maybe "just as much as any captain would," is too strong. However, I already stated he took it to an extreme, but he does it in his own way. I think we already gotten the fact that he released prisoners, (to find Ichigo, blah blah) and as for fighting the captains, THEY took the first gib and swing at him. They had just as much wrong in it as he did. They did not bother to ask, just judged that he was wrong.

    They were locked in a prison and chained with cuffs that negate all Reiatsu of the people chained with it.

    Now, this maybe just me but the fact they´re locked and treated in a way that they couldn´t use their powers strikes me as prisoners they don´t want to escape and cause any more Death God casualties.

    But lo and behold, Kenpachi doesn´t give a shit about that!

    But don´t worry, his motives are pure and unselfish! He´s here for the greater good!

    I´m sure he´ll put them right back on prison after he finds Ichigo.
    Considering that Kenpachi, Ikkaku, and Yumichika was with them and wouldn't let them escape even if they wanted to, what Ishida/Inoue/Chad they going to do? Fight their way free? No, Kenpachi wanted to use them to find Ichigo, and then fight him. The rest of Gotei 13 can then capture the already weak Ryoka. I didn't say he did it to be unselfish or a model captain, I just said he had his own method of doing things. If anything, he can be blamed for not thinking ahead, but that's his personality, a loose cannon.

    Oh wait.

    He stopped searching for Ichigo because he lost his fighting mood when Komamura went to help Yamamoto.

    He completely forgot about the prisoners he broke free.

    And then he went home to sit on his ass.
    Actually, he stopped because he had to rest. He then stopped because he felt Yama's pressure, which he, who has a crappy spiritual sensor, even felt. He could have chased after Komamura, but didn't want to run into Yama. As for the prisoners, at that time everything was a mess and everyone was off doing something else, and so that was a blunder of what he did by not considering that there might be a distraction to cause him from keeping an eye on them. Of course, everyone was also irresponsible during that period.

    What an amazing, law abiding, order obeying role model for Death Gods everywhere.
    Komamura was off on a goose chase. Kurotsuchi didn't care. Hitsugaya was off playing Sherlock Holmes. Soi Fong was ready to kill the "defecting" vice-captains. Unohana didn't even bother questioning or helping Yamamoto. Yamamoto was ready to kill his two favorite captains. Shunsui and Juushiro destroyed a prized and feared possession of SS. No one (besides maybe Hitsugaya and Komamura) had any sense of order. If you wanna play that game of sense and law abiding order, none of the captains fit.

    Oh what great leaders the captains are in SS.

    Tousen stated specifically that Kenpachi was wrong when he assumed Tousen hated him. Read that again.
    You read my quote again, no where did I use the strong word hate. It is true that Tousen didn't like him, HE even stated that he didn't because he threw his world into chaos.

    Tousen was taking Kenpachi down because he always thought he was a loose canon, that he would follow by his fighting instincts first and his commitment to justice and peace second.

    Which it happened.

    Which was why they both attacked Kenpachi.

    Which Kenpachi went back at them just for the sake of fighting.
    The loose cannon wasn't the first to start the insults, and wasn't the first to start the fight ironically. The words were also ironically came from a traitor who also said that he didn't want chaos and was committed to justice.

    Zaraki was searching for Ichigo to fight him AND capture him
    Which for some reason he went off on Zaraki, and didn't bother to ask why he released them.
    Which Zaraki defended himself.
    Which puts the blame really on the attackers than the attacked.

    What?
    Everyone in that fight, Zaraki, Tousen, and Komamura were equally at fault. They could have all equally have done better to quell the situation (ok, Zaraki would not unless being told by Yama). They didn't.

    So, Ikkaku, who´s willing to fight to the death in any fight that he enters despite the fact that he handicaps himself and never gangs up on his enemies since he only enters 1 on 1 fights, is a coward?

    Yeah, he sure looked like a coward when he was bleeding all over himself, could barely stand up and still attacked Ichigo screaming like a mad person....
    Willing to battle to the death and put a limitation on yourself is foolish. Willing to hide your powers just because you have a conceived notion of not being discovered is cowardice. Willing to defend the world by whatever necessary means is courageous. He did the opposite of that, which makes him both foolish and cowardly.

    You´re clutching to the term "hiding" and twisting his motives for his self imposed handicap so that you can call him a coward.
    And you're trying your best to save him face when he is clearly wrong, foolish, and cowardly.

    He doesn't want to get promoted since he wants to die while serving Kenpachi

    His objective in life is dying in battle....

    I seriously find it amazing that you consider him a coward.
    Quote Originally Posted by ranteil
    He is afraid of being promoted just because he won't be under Kenpachi, and thus hides his strength. He isn't willing to show it at all, unless he is garenteed a win with it and no one from S.S. Thus Ikkaku is betraying what he wants to emulate, what he wants to be, and that is cowerdly.
    That's why.

    Let´s just agree to disagree.
    Deal.
    Last edited by DivineVTDragon; 10-09-2008 at 01:08 PM.

  6. #56
    Deathbringerpt is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Okay, i said that i was done but i´ll just cover 2 things, feel free to agree/disagree as you see fit.

    Like when he went to capture Orihime, he just had a stone cold face and whisked her away; none of his lazy humor, just pure business.
    Not really, he stated that despite having to follow Aizen´s orders, he didn´t had to like it, which just shows animosity from his part. He doesn't regard orders as "just pure business", he still has personal opinions about it and feels them strongly enough to justify himself to Orihime.

    Stark was right next to the fire, he didn't sneeze, he was again, just surprised at it. Then I agree, he quickly became his lazy self when he found out he wasn't hit by the fire.
    It´s true that he was the one most close to the fire, that´s why he sneezed. He turned into semi comical relief in that scene, while that still doesn´t prove that he´s the strongest, it shows that it was no longer worth his attention.


    On another note, it seems that Halibel will face Hitsugaya and Barragan will face Yamamoto (This one was obvious).

  7. #57
    Ziazca is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    Assuming Komamura re-joins the others...

    -6 Fraccion
    -3 Espada

    vs.

    -3 Vice-Captains
    -6 Captains

    I'm guessing the remaining Fraccion are either pretty tough or have cheap abilities.

  8. #58
    jonslaught is offline Senior Member Regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoKnuckles View Post
    Screw that, remove the 1 so that he becomes Espada #0, the espada that transcends all espada, the espada of 0
    Next thing you'll know Yammy will kill Aizen wearing his mask, freeing the Arrancar with the hated diverted to Aizen, and Yammy will become the defender of justice while cursed on wearing the mask forever.

    Or I might be thinking another series..

 

 
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