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  1. #41
    Deathbringerpt is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    It's not a sign of weakness that she didn't show emotion, maybe that is her persoanlity, emotionless-ness. We haven't seen anything from her besides that comment, and now.
    Iīm not saying that it was a sign of weakness, i know that, especially since itīs confirmed thatīs sheīs one of the top 3, iīm saying that peopleīs reaction in Bleach donīt always reflect their strength but their personality.

    Bottom line here is that Halibel was surprised at Ichigo strength but she still stared at him like a scarecrow.

    He's "hiding" his powers, like a coward, and would rather take the easy way out than to show that there's something more to him. He thinks that he's replaceable and that in itself is a cowardly act.
    How does Ikkaku hiding his powers make him a coward?

    How is that the "easy" way out?

    Heīs making his fights harder for him because of that, he still wants to win despite his self limitation.

    If anything that makes him anything *but* a coward since he fights someone to the death despite the fact that he may as well be stronger than them. Ikkakuīs complained about Iba retreating as a "cowardly logic" and canīt for the life of him, run away or attack someone in the back because heīs not a coward.

    Constantly hiding his power makes him exactly what Iba called him, stubborn.

    1) Tousen hated him.
    2) Kenpachi wanted to fight him.
    3) komamura was on Tousen's side
    1) Kenpachi assumed that Tousen hated him, Tousen negated the fact and said that he was there to stop him because he was a loose canon because he broke the law on a simple whim.

    2) Exactly. Kenpachi wanted to fight a Captain in the Gotei 13 that was there to stop his insubordination, HOW is this a behavior of someone who follows orders and abide laws?

    Kenpachi wasnīt acting like a military officer, he completely disregarded his duty has a captain.

    3) Because Kenpachi broke prisoners out of prison, because Kenpachi provoked both of them, because Kenpachi was about to kill Tousen, a captain of the Gotei 13.

    It's not flawed, you just have to use a thinking process other than looking at "wooh, he did wrong."
    His reasoning here is exactly whatīs wrong here, heīs not thinking like an officer of his rank or thinking about the broad situation, heīs not pondering why Rukiaīs exectution date is being shortened time and time again, heīs not searching for Aizenīs murderer...

    He just wants to fight Ichigo.

    To have fun.

    Itīs all about him, he never joined Soul Society for any sense of duty or protection of the greater good, he just wants to fight powerful people. Thatīs Kenpachi in a nutshell.

    Insubordination? Yes, to a point. Disregard for the law? No. He did what he could to take out the main threat, whether it means taking the other enemies to lead him to him and taking out captains.
    You claim that heīs someone you can rely to follow orders and that we havenīt seen him disobey orders which is simply not true.
    And again we come to Kenpachiīs main motivation. To have fun.

    He doesnīt want to "take down" the main threat, he wants to fight him as much as he can, thatīs why he never intentionally kills his adversaries, heīs not there to kill anyone, heīs there to fight as much as he can for long as he can.

    Kenpachi only saw it as a means to an end, and doens't matter how he gets to it. He used Orihime and friends to get to ichigo, who was the biggest threat to SS. The captains just got in his way.
    Captains just got in his way?

    Youīre talking like it were Tousen and Komamura who were doing the wrong thing here.

    Low alert prisioners. If they were high alert prisoners Soi Fong's squad would have taken them and put them in her prison. Again ichigo was the main enemy of the time, especially when all the prisoners were captured. He just simply took the people close to him to lead him to Ichigo.
    The Maggotīs Nest isnīt for regular prisoners regardless of their "importance", theyīre for Death God who may pose a threath to Soul Society, it has nothing to do with Ishida, Orihime and the sand dude.

    And Ishida defeated and almost killed a Captain and yet Kenpachi released him, it doesnīt matter that Ishida lost all of his powers, at the time he was the only one who knew that. Kenpachi doesnīt think about the consequences, heīs a simple guy who in the end is not the standart Captain in the Gotei 13.

    Always acts on a whim? No, that one time proves that he doesn't act on a whim. Usually acts on a whim? Maybe. That one scene shows us that he does abide by the laws, and he does put duty above all others. At the (first) meeting he was told to apprehend the Ryoka, and so he did just that, to do everything he could to do that. Ikkaku was told to protect that pillar, but no, he let it destroyed. They are not the same.
    Ok, "always" may be too strong of a word. "Most of the time" would be more accurate. And Kenpachi didnīt obeyed the order to the letter, he only targeted the stronger fighters, he could care less about people who wouldnīt gibe him a fun fight.

    Again, itīs about him first and his duty second which is why Ikkaku is similar to him since he acts in a similar fashion.

    As for that scene, yes, maybe there was a fight, but since there is such a distinction and bond between all of them, they would never go against them. Ikkaku and Yumichika obkecting? Nope. Hitsugaya objecting? Renji objecting? No. Ichigo objecting? He's not going to accept help if help isn't willing to give itself to him.
    Read my post again, the only one who only had a chance of going against Yamaīs orders was Ichigo, thatīs was the main reason why Byakuya and Kenpachi were there.

    And Ichigo was almost going to do it too if not for Renji.

  2. #42
    DivineVTDragon is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathbringerpt View Post
    Iīm not saying that it was a sign of weakness, i know that, especially since itīs confirmed thatīs sheīs one of the top 3, iīm saying that peopleīs reaction in Bleach donīt always reflect their strength but their personality.

    Bottom line here is that Halibel was surprised at Ichigo strength but she still stared at him like a scarecrow.
    Surprised at his strength maybe, but that's only logical because she felt the nature and pressure of his reiatsu, which she even stated was more of an Espada rather than a Shinigami. Now, why was she not as surprised when Yamamoto shot his fire and only stark was? I would put these two readings in a different context. The fact is, she was more surprised at Ichigo's Vaizard powers, which she didn't even know what to classify that as at that time, then she was more surprised as Ichigo's raw strength.

    How does Ikkaku hiding his powers make him a coward?

    How is that the "easy" way out?

    Heīs making his fights harder for him because of that, he still wants to win despite his self limitation.

    If anything that makes him anything *but* a coward since he fights someone to the death despite the fact that he may as well be stronger than them. Ikkakuīs complained about Iba retreating as a "cowardly logic" and canīt for the life of him, run away or attack someone in the back because heīs not a coward.
    He's taking the easy way out because even if he gets defeated he can just say "oh replace me." He's taking the easy way out because it's easier for people not to notice him and lose, rather than defend with all the strength he possess, like Kenpachi. He's cowardly making up excuses to show true strength at the sign of adversity, and for what? Just so he can push himself a little harder? He wants to have the best time fighting but doesn't like to give it his all, but expects his opponent to (look back on the fight he had with Ichigo)? That is the meaning of cowardly.

    Ichigo tried this before with Dordonni or whatever his face is, and he himself realized that it was wrong, and foolish. I believe I said it at that time also, he was just cowardly not facing his opponent by limiting himself.

    Constantly hiding his power makes him exactly what Iba called him, stubborn.
    Keep in mind, that the nature of hiding is to be a coward. Why is he hiding his power? Because he doesn't want his captain (and the other captains really) to know.


    1) Kenpachi assumed that Tousen hated him, Tousen negated the fact and said that he was there to stop him because he was a loose canon because he broke the law on a simple whim.
    Tousen stated that he didn't like him. There was no need for an assumption. It could have simply be put as "why did you free them?" However, Tousen took the battle stance immediately.

    2) Exactly. Kenpachi wanted to fight a Captain in the Gotei 13 that was there to stop his insubordination, HOW is this a behavior of someone who follows orders and abide laws?

    Kenpachi wasnīt acting like a military officer, he completely disregarded his duty has a captain.
    He wanted to fight them AFTER they decided to fight him. If they had not shown up, or had simply let him through, the last of the Ryoka, namely Ichigo, would have been found and all the prisoners, who were of no threat at all, would have been captured again.

    Insubordination? There was no one of a higher rank than him there. I will agree that he did break the law and that this method would be a little extreme and a lot better if he had explained why he took the prisoners, but he was still on orders to capture the Ryoka. He did what he thought of to find the quickest route to him.

    Yes, that is true he wasn't acting like a military officer, but he only did it to get the objective done. Let out prisoners who weren't even a threat to find the big fish and capture him. After the big fish, the prisoners who held no threat would be recaptured. His duty as a captain still applied, even if his mannerism wasn't.

    3) Because Kenpachi broke prisoners out of prison, because Kenpachi provoked both of them, because Kenpachi was about to kill Tousen, a captain of the Gotei 13.
    At the point of meeting, both sides weren't going to negotiate. Both sides could have handled it suiting their captain positions. Tousen had his mind set on defeating Kenpachi, Kenpachi had his mind set on getting to Ichigo, and Komamura had his mind set on helping his friend Tousen. If any of them had asked politely and reasoned with each other, than the fight wouldn't have started.

    Tousen and Komamura provoked Kenpachi first by stating that he lost his pride when he lose to Ichigo. Then the battle of one liners started where Komamura decided to smack him a new one.

    His reasoning here is exactly whatīs wrong here, heīs not thinking like an officer of his rank or thinking about the broad situation, heīs not pondering why Rukiaīs exectution date is being shortened time and time again, heīs not searching for Aizenīs murderer...

    He just wants to fight Ichigo.

    To have fun.

    Itīs all about him, he never joined Soul Society for any sense of duty or protection of the greater good, he just wants to fight powerful people. Thatīs Kenpachi in a nutshell.
    Believe it or not, he does think about his rank and the situation, just as you said, not broad enough. Why would he want to be captain? Why did he kill the previous captain? Why did he then assume captain? That alone tells us that he cares about the captain rank.

    He doesn't care about the execution because he has no need to. Kurotsuchi didn't care if Aizen betrayed or not, Soi Fong didn't care about the situation, Komamura had doubts, be only cared about what yamamoto says, which in turn lead to Tousen thinking the same way. Are they as bad, or even worst then he is? Only about 4 captains questioned the legality of that execution, and only about 3 of those captains questions Aizen's death. Are they also just as bad? Now, Kenpachi did what Yamamoto told him to do, capture the Ryoka who were said to be in part of Aizen's death. THAT is following orders.

    He may have joined for that initial reason, however, he's showing more and more times to be someone that follows orders. That and he, believe it or not (just like Komamura) believes in what Yamamoto says and follows those exact orders. Find the ryoka, done. take back your subordinates. Done. Infiltrate Hueco Mundo, done.

    He doesnīt want to "take down" the main threat, he wants to fight him as much as he can, thatīs why he never intentionally kills his adversaries, heīs not there to kill anyone, heīs there to fight as much as he can for long as he can.
    By finding and fighting them to near death, that's capture, and that is taking down main threats. He just kills two birds with one stone that way. Remember, his main objective was to capture the Ryoka and kill if necessary, not to just plainly kill them. The Ryoka were prime suspects in Aizen's death.

    Captains just got in his way?

    Youīre talking like it were Tousen and Komamura who were doing the wrong thing here.
    No, they were all equally guilty in handling the situation.

    The Maggotīs Nest isnīt for regular prisoners regardless of their "importance", theyīre for Death God who may pose a threath to Soul Society, it has nothing to do with Ishida, Orihime and the sand dude.

    And Ishida defeated and almost killed a Captain and yet Kenpachi released him, it doesnīt matter that Ishida lost all of his powers, at the time he was the only one who knew that. Kenpachi doesnīt think about the consequences, heīs a simple guy who in the end is not the standart Captain in the Gotei 13.
    There are more prisons than just the Maggot's Nest I believe. And I'll restate it again, if they were a threat the second division would have taken them, and not just to take them to the Maggot's nest either.

    Kenpachi didn't know he almost killed a captain. In fact, only Tousen MAY have known. To Kenpachi he just knew that he was harmless.

    Ok, "always" may be too strong of a word. "Most of the time" would be more accurate. And Kenpachi didnīt obeyed the order to the letter, he only targeted the stronger fighters, he could care less about people who wouldnīt gibe him a fun fight.

    Again, itīs about him first and his duty second which is why Ikkaku is similar to him since he acts in a similar fashion.
    Whether or not he obeyed that order to the letter, he obeyed it, which your argument was focused around saying he doesn't abide by the laws. The way he sees it, when he fights the strongest guys, he's accomplishing his objective and having his fun at the same time. Maybe he takes this to an extreme, but as I've said, he does abide by the laws and order just as much as any captain would.

    As for Ikkaku, I will admit that their idealogies are similar, yet very different from each other as seen by the arguments in this thread. The fact is, Ikkaku was ordered to defend that Pillar no matter what, and Kenpachi was ordered to capture Ryoka no matter what. He did just that, breaking a few codes along the way.

    Read my post again, the only one who only had a chance of going against Yamaīs orders was Ichigo, thatīs was the main reason why Byakuya and Kenpachi were there.

    And Ichigo was almost going to do it too if not for Renji.
    Read my post again, there wasn't going to be a fight. Renji stopped Ichigo BEFORE the two captains came, and only because Ichigo was angry because Yamamoto said Inoue defected, not because he was going to object to being on his own and finding Inoue. What was Ichigo going to do, smash the TV screen? Ichigo would never accept help if help wasn't offered to him, that's why he didn't say anything.

  3. #43
    krazykwasi is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    ^^haha. WOW both of you still at it?!? Yall wanna tear each other's heads off that bad?? A rivalry has been born.

    "He is now declaring his words to the WORLD!"

  4. #44
    TheGambit is offline Senior Member Regular
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    Yes, this is a bit much. You two should work on something more productive for the same amount of effort, like writing a novel.

    I'm gonna have to agree with Deathbringerpt, because logic told me to or else.
    Last edited by TheGambit; 10-07-2008 at 03:34 PM.
    ALL HOPE IS GONE

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    The bill of rights is a bill of sale.
    What will you do when the war is over?
    What will you do when your system fails!?

  5. #45
    chinsee is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    yeah i gotta agree with deathbringerpt aswell, logically, his argument makes more sense

  6. #46
    NoKnuckles is offline Senior Member Frequent Poster
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    Quote Originally Posted by krazykwasi View Post
    ^^haha. WOW both of you still at it?!? Yall wanna tear each other's heads off that bad?? A rivalry has been born.
    Yeah I know, discussing Bleach on a Bleach message forum? That's crazy talk

  7. #47
    krazykwasi is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoKnuckles View Post
    Yeah I know, discussing Bleach on a Bleach message forum? That's crazy talk
    Im not gettin on them for talkin about bleach IN a bleach forum knuc, im gettin on them for not coming to a truce or agreement almost 2 pages of numerous quotes and reputals. Shoot they bring up so much issues they'd put the presidential candidates to shame.

    "He is now declaring his words to the WORLD!"

  8. #48
    Tamiel is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    You talk about surprise? When Ichigo stopped the execution with one hand, I remember Soi Fon being surprised by that. Is she weaker than Ichigo? Couldn't she or the other captains do the same? Also when he destroyed the harbor of the execution there is a page with the face of all captains present in what appears to be surprised. Again, are they weaker than Ichigo? Let the speculation begin!...(not really).

    Tamiel -
    Last edited by Tamiel; 10-08-2008 at 10:44 AM.

  9. #49
    Cueny is offline Senior Member Regular
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    I agree with DivineVTDragon, his novel was fun.

    But I realy think DivineVTDragon's opinion is right.

    DivineVTDragon RULE!!!

  10. #50
    Cueny is offline Senior Member Regular
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    @Tamiel Let the novel begin.

    I think Stark is no.1 espada.

    He surprise because Yama oldman is too old and weak.

 

 
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