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Thread: chapter 135

  1. #51
    heavenorhell7 is offline Senior Member Regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by StealDragon View Post
    You seriously think because she doesn't like battling ATs that she'll abandon everything shes ever worked for just because it makes her a little uncomfortable?
    She herself claimed, and has an end-goal on how ATs should be used--only for fun, not for fighting. Also, hasn't Ringo worked at Ikki for longer? They've been childhood friends/sister, and she said it herself, she loves him more than anyone; but her actions speak otherwise. Honestly, I'd hate to be loved in the way Ringo shows it; it seems emotionally hurtful and physically painful. She's choosing to abandon all her invested time with Ikki; but she's probably betting on Ikki's kindness for friends and family that he won't leave her. If a childhood friend/sister treated me that way (all of Ringo's deeds), I'd kick her to curb; but Ikki seems like a good guy who would never hurt or leave family/friends, so he wouldn't do what Ringo is doing to him, regardless of the circumstance--unlike her.

    You seriously think she would break the promise they just swore to each other to do their best and fight full on?
    From the way the characters have reveled their truthfulness, up until now in the story, I know Ikki wouldn't break a promise or hide anything from Ringo or family/friends; Ringo, on the other hand, if her past actions are any ruler to judge, who knows? She's capable of deceiving, hurting, lying, and much more as long it she believes it serves SF's interests. I mean, right from the start of the fight she sucker punched him twice and stole his prized possession, taunting him all the way, while Ikki, trying to be a better man by avoid a fight with a childhood friend/family, walked away. But, if you keep poking a sleeping bear, can you blame him for waking up? And anyways, I don't think Ikki would really hurt her; he's upset, but I know he cares for her, regardless of her conduct.

    You seriously think shes a hypocrite because she is faced with two unfavorable choices and took the lesser of two evils?
    That's ridiculous; she wasn't in a dating simulation where you only have two choices. She could have easily just refused either of them, or made her own third choice. If Ikki was faced with the same two choices--choosing between SF or family/friends--Ikki would always side where his heart is; and his heart is with family and friends. And if the options are not satisfactory, Ikki would make a third choice. His characters has show this to be the case over and over again.

    And of course Ringo is a hypocrite; her and SF's actions reek of it. Being hypocritical has to do with claiming one thing (i.e, I have this moral view) while doing another (i.e, I don't have the moral view), or vice versa, not choosing the lesser of two evil. For example:
    [Ringo laughs as she slams her knees into Ikki's stomach, looking to clip his wings, knowing she has to hurt him by SF rules]: "I love you Ikki."

    I'm not saying Ringo is evil or bad, I'm just saying her actions are. If anything, she may be confused and is just making poor decisions based on wrong judgments; or her judgment is based on another's reasoning (Killik) who has a "convincing" agenda.

  2. #52
    StealDragon's Avatar
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    I wonder if its worth arguing about with you if you obviously can't understand the concept of a "complex character". Seeing how single minded you are makes me feel it'd be a waste of time to debunk and explain it to you. When you can prove to me that you can grasp the idea of a "dilemma", I'll attempt to show you how a person can do something they don't want to do, but still do it in a way that they don't feel they're doing something wrong or hypocritical. However, as of right now, retarded doesn't even begin to describe your comments.


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  3. #53
    heavenorhell7 is offline Senior Member Regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by StealDragon View Post
    I wonder if its worth arguing about with you if you obviously can't understand the concept of a "complex character". Seeing how single minded you are makes me feel it'd be a waste of time to debunk and explain it to you. When you can prove to me that you can grasp the idea of a "dilemma", I'll attempt to show you how a person can do something they don't want to do, but still do it in a way that they don't feel they're doing something wrong or hypocritical. However, as of right now, retarded doesn't even begin to describe your comments.
    Name calling doesn't suit you; it belittles you, and I hope that's not who you are. And who's arguing? I thought people were discussing; discussion doesn't have to involve an argument, though it does involve argumentative reasoning.

    And you say I can't understand the concept of a "complex character"? I beg to differ; that's one major reason why I read AirGear. The integration of complex characters with the overarching plot and story is very well done; I love Oh Great's art, but I love his story and character development just as much.

    Please attempt to show me your claim. Let's start under the premise that I can grasp the idea of a "dilemma"; after all, this assumption is justified on the basis of being an assumption, as everything else is. That should be sufficient enough proof since I can at least read and write and think. If that is not enough, then take your pick: A dilemma is,

    1. a situation requiring a choice between equally undesirable alternatives.
    2. any difficult or perplexing situation or problem.
    3. Logic. a form of syllogism in which the major premise is formed of two or more hypothetical propositions and the minor premise is a disjunctive proposition, as If A, then B; if C then D. Either A or C. Therefore, either B or D.

    Here's you're goal: "... I'll attempt to show you how a person can do something they don't want to do, but still do it in a way that they don't feel they're doing something wrong or hypocritical." Broken down it amounts to this:

    Assumption 1: X is a bad action.
    Assumption 2: Y is a bad action.
    Assumption 3: I have no desire to do either X or Y. This is my moral/ethical internal ground for judgment, since I know they are both bad actions.
    Assumption 4: I choose to to the lesser of X and Y since I have no other choice.
    Assumption 5: ? ...
    Assumption n: ? ...
    Conclusion: By doing X or Y, I've done nothing wrong nor am I hypocritical in my conduct, i.e, my moral/ethical expression of my judgment is on par with my moral/ethical internal ground for that judgment.

    For me at least, the only way to get to that conclusion would be for the following premise(s) to be added:

    Assumption 5: Conduct under duress of any kind absolves the party of guilt.
    Assumption 6: Mental instability absolves guilt of conduct.
    Assumption 7: No other choice amounts to no choice; falls under conduct under duress absolving one of wrong doing.
    Assumption 8: The end justifies the means. I'm absolved of wrong doing if the end result is a good action.

    But what are the results of adding these extra premises, and do they even carry more weight than the others?

  4. #54
    StealDragon's Avatar
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    >:]
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenorhell7 View Post
    Name calling doesn't suit you; it belittles you, and I hope that's not who you are. And who's arguing? I thought people were discussing; discussion doesn't have to involve an argument, though it does involve argumentative reasoning.
    Arguing, discussing... a spirited exchange of ideas and opinions... bah. Same difference; and no name calling was done.

    Quote Originally Posted by heavenorhell7 View Post
    And you say I can't understand the concept of a "complex character"? I beg to differ; that's one major reason why I read AirGear. The integration of complex characters with the overarching plot and story is very well done; I love Oh Great's art, but I love his story and character development just as much.
    Really? I beg to differ. Your simplistic and one sided analysis of the situation Ringo is in screams otherwise. You cast her in a negative light as a hypocrite because she chose to not only respect Ikkis wishes but also to fulfil her duty to Sleeping Forest and Trophaeum. She is clearly moderately pacifistic and would rather ride for fun rather than battle like say... Gabishi. She could almost be compared to Simca in that respect, where in the beginning she was a free rider, but in the future where she knows Ikki will be the Sky King, instead helping him like Simca did, she is unfortunately there to stop him.

    As for the hypocrite tag you posted on her. View it objectively. This is war. She is a soldier, nay a GENERAL. Although naturally averted to battle, she joined the army to learn and have fun while finding her place in the world, she trained, she learned, she perfected, and she became one of the greatest soldiers there ever were even though she would rather not resort to fighting. When war broke out will she deny that she doesn't like to fight or will she rather show that she doesn't like to fight and bend over to be decimated as the war continues whether she participates or not. She respects the enemy, as he her, but will she disappoint and disrespect both her side and her enemy by instead instead of fighting lying down in defeat because the prospect of battle is something she doesn't enjoy? Will she let her hard work and all the time she spent practicing go to waste? Why would she be wrong if she stuck to what she is a part of and fought? Because she doesn't like to fight? Because she would rather use her skills for only fun? What if she came to discover that her feelings of love for her new enemy were only compounded positively when she was able to release herself fully and bask in the the battle between them? Would she be hypocritical if she did what she was destined to do, what she was great at, and what she quite seemingly enjoys... all because she loves times of peace more than times of war?

    I firmly think not.
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenorhell7 View Post
    Please attempt to show me your claim. Let's start under the premise that I can grasp the idea of a "dilemma"; after all, this assumption is justified on the basis of being an assumption, as everything else is. That should be sufficient enough proof since I can at least read and write and think. If that is not enough, then take your pick: A dilemma is,

    1. a situation requiring a choice between equally undesirable alternatives.
    2. any difficult or perplexing situation or problem.
    3. Logic. a form of syllogism in which the major premise is formed of two or more hypothetical propositions and the minor premise is a disjunctive proposition, as If A, then B; if C then D. Either A or C. Therefore, either B or D.

    Here's you're goal: "... I'll attempt to show you how a person can do something they don't want to do, but still do it in a way that they don't feel they're doing something wrong or hypocritical." Broken down it amounts to this:

    Assumption 1: X is a bad action.
    Assumption 2: Y is a bad action.
    Assumption 3: I have no desire to do either X or Y. This is my moral/ethical internal ground for judgment, since I know they are both bad actions.
    Assumption 4: I choose to to the lesser of X and Y since I have no other choice.
    Assumption 5: ? ...
    Assumption n: ? ...
    Conclusion: By doing X or Y, I've done nothing wrong nor am I hypocritical in my conduct, i.e, my moral/ethical expression of my judgment is on par with my moral/ethical internal ground for that judgment.

    For me at least, the only way to get to that conclusion would be for the following premise(s) to be added:

    Assumption 5: Conduct under duress of any kind absolves the party of guilt.
    Assumption 6: Mental instability absolves guilt of conduct.
    Assumption 7: No other choice amounts to no choice; falls under conduct under duress absolving one of wrong doing.
    Assumption 8: The end justifies the means. I'm absolved of wrong doing if the end result is a good action.

    But what are the results of adding these extra premises, and do they even carry more weight than the others?
    See above.

    Because you haven't (I wont say can't) seemed to understand that someone doing what they're best at, what they studied and practiced to do, even if its against something they said some time ago is not hypocritical, I see no point in continuing to post my opinions.

    Times change. Before Ikki I bet she loved to just ride her ATs more than she liked to battle. I bet she loved Ikki more than anything, but the fact remains she learned how to fight, she became the successor to the Sonia Road, she rose to the challenge and lead the greatest team of Stormriders ever. She made her decision and although battle may not be something she likes, she is clearly ready to do it no matter the opponent. No hypocrisy involved. She understands that, I understand that, why can't you? Hell she'd be alot more hypocritical if she didn't fight him...


    I'd like to die with the songs I love stuck in my head. I hope to make the most of these hollow bones we become.
    I raise a toast to the the souls that sang all along. I've been gathering friends to just to make some sounds,
    before the ship goes down, I've been making amends by making the rounds before the whole world ends


    [Chit Chat Specific Forum Rules] // Last Update - Friday March 13, 2009

  5. #55
    heavenorhell7 is offline Senior Member Regular
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    [QUOTE=StealDragon;407343]
    Arguing, discussing... a spirited exchange of ideas and opinions... bah. Same difference; and no name calling was done.[\QUOTE]

    If calling someone simple-minded and retarded is not name calling, then what is it?

    [QUOTE=StealDragon;407343]
    ... You cast her in a negative light as a hypocrite because she chose to not only respect Ikkis wishes but also to fulfil her duty to Sleeping Forest and Trophaeum. She is clearly moderately pacifistic and would rather ride for fun rather than battle like say... Gabishi. ...[\QUOTE]

    To respect Ikki's wishes? Last time I checked he doesn't want to harm or hurt her, or his family and friends, in any way, shape, or form; that is, until she provoked him. I hardly call someone who picks a fight, or will fight rigidly under SF rules, a moderate pacifist; she is no Gabishi, but a moderate pacifist would not try to harm family and friends, I'm one; I don't think any form of pacifism would allow what she has done in the past till now. Who knows how many times she's gone "crazy apple" on other riders; at least the amount of times the sisters ate steak and went out without Ikki, around twice.

    Fulfilling a duty that calls to harm someone takes a withdrawing away from emotions, yet the emotions are still there. You become a hipporcate when your emotions say, "I don't want to hurt you" but your actions cause hurt.

    Quote Originally Posted by StealDragon View Post
    ... When war broke out will she deny that she doesn't like to fight or will she rather show that she doesn't like to fight and bend over to be decimated as the war continues whether she participates or not. She respects the enemy, as he her, but will she disappoint and disrespect both her side and her enemy by instead instead of fighting lying down in defeat because the prospect of battle is something she doesn't enjoy? Will she let her hard work and all the time she spent practicing go to waste? Why would she be wrong if she stuck to what she is a part of and fought? Because she doesn't like to fight? Because she would rather use her skills for only fun? What if she came to discover that her feelings of love for her new enemy were only compounded positively when she was able to release herself fully and bask in the the battle between them? Would she be hypocritical if she did what she was destined to do, what she was great at, and what she quite seemingly enjoys... all because she loves times of peace more than times of war?
    When you participate in "your" war, you don't have to necessarily takes sides; if she knew she was doing something wrong (which she did, by all the angst, worry, and questioning she was going through) she could have easily chosen a third option; but she didn't. She's thinking her way is the right way and is willing to beat her view, and most likely Killik's, into others--that's wrong! And just because you practice anything doesn't mean you are automatically given a right to exercise your blood, sweat, and tears; ask any practitioner of the martial arts. Also, people can stick to wrong causes, can see them till the end; it doesn't give credence to the right hood of it. That's a very simple concept to understand.

    You then talk of feelings being compounded positively in the heat of battle; that may be true, but it is also a double edged sword. More often than not, if one person is the aggressor and the other not, and if they fight, feelings of resentment remain for the loser. I believe, though, that Ikki is too good and right to resent his family and friends. And then you talk of Ringo wanting to bask in the battle between them! I'd say that's a big gamble for such a ridiculous high; betting you're friendship for a rush. I think she's just taking advantage of Ikki's kindness; because Ikki wouldn't do all the things she's done to him, on her. Your last sentence is honestly simplistic. If we're destined to do anything, then we have no choice; having no choice in the matter, then how can our actions be blamed? But clearly we choose, so in the end we must be held somewhat responsible for our actions; so clearly we can be hypocritical in our character.

    Listen, I can love peace, I can love humanity, I can love; but once my perfected, above all common soldiers and men, practiced actions go contrary to love, I become a hypocrite; but there's nothing wrong with being who you are if you're OK with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by StealDragon View Post
    Because you haven't (I wont say can't) seemed to understand that someone doing what they're best at, what they studied and practiced to do, even if its against something they said some time ago is not hypocritical, I see no point in continuing to post my opinions.
    Again, If I claim to love humanity, to love Ikki, to believe in humanities goodness, though I'm the best soldier out there, nay, General God-O-Mighty, once my actions go counter to my internal beliefs, I'm a hypocrite. Last time I checked, that's the definition of hypocrisy. Ringo can easily get out of this by just changing her internal views to match her outer actions; after all, time does change people's beliefs and view.

    Quote Originally Posted by StealDragon View Post
    Times change. Before Ikki I bet she loved to just ride her ATs more than she liked to battle. I bet she loved Ikki more than anything, but the fact remains she learned how to fight, she became the successor to the Sonia Road, she rose to the challenge and lead the greatest team of Stormriders ever. She made her decision and although battle may not be something she likes, she is clearly ready to do it no matter the opponent. No hypocrisy involved. She understands that, I understand that, why can't you? Hell she'd be alot more hypocritical if she didn't fight him...
    See post above.

  6. #56
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    Umm, OK, lets drop the subject now shall we?

  7. #57
    Katana Soul is offline Senior Member Well Known
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    I don't like doing homework, but doing it and trying my best on it doesn't make me a hypocrite.

    That's pretty much all I have to say to this debate.

  8. #58
    vphamv is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deoris View Post
    ^well,if you read the last(scanlated) chapter,then i think its pretty obvious whos gonna intervene (IMO)
    well, the chapter before this made it seem like its going to be Aeon in this chapter, and if anything kururu would try to help ikki by giving the protoypes than try to stop them from fighting, atleast imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by deuce22 View Post
    so in essence everyone can agree that the story is pretty good? Lots of drama, with a good cliff hanger? Whats with the thing about ikki saying, "stop ringo?" What's that all about too???
    yeah, this reminds me of the good ol days when you could undertand the story of Tenjou Tenge. where did he say "stop Ringo?"
    Street Fighter > All


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  9. #59
    Katana Soul is offline Senior Member Well Known
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    Chapter 135, page 42 (?), where Ringo's saying "I told you didn't I, I'll crush you with everything I have!" Ikki says "Stop...Rin..." in the background.

  10. #60
    wishes_are_pies is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    i can imagine a world with no ill intentions, no decet and no war. i can imagine us attacking it and they won't suspect a thing.
    World without men: No crime and lots of happy fat women

 

 
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