View Poll Results: is ringo a bad person?

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  • Yes

    73 25.35%
  • no

    116 40.28%
  • i can't tell

    46 15.97%
  • I like Kazu

    53 18.40%
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  1. #91
    deuce22 is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by heavenorhell7 View Post
    I wish it were that easy deuce; unfortunately, not all ideologies are created equal. If they were, or were all true or right, then it would be equivalent in saying that there are no right or true ideologies (truth preserving logical implication).
    what makes any ideologies greater than any other? They are just thoughts and believes in something. Just like religion, (i dont want to debate about this, but i'm just using it for reference) each religion is right in their own aspect.

    Try as I might, I still can't see Ringo other than, in the best view possible, as a confused or lead astray ATer. I won't go as far as saying she is evil, but I can confidently say she is not good or innocent, and that her actions, whatever reason she gives them, are bad (at least by what I understand these definitions to be). She seems to be under the premise that the means justifies the ends, but this premise is only good, to me that is, when we know for sure the ends; and even then it's still questionable. I base all this on the way she has been developed in the story--her overt actions, her internal dialogs, her internal struggles (questionings), and her stated desires and beliefs.
    like ringo's turner said, it's a battle of ideologies. Ringo in one hand wants practically no one hurt, so SF goes and hunt down all "possible" people who are candidates for being the sky king or in essence those who can fly. Also they hunt down those who influence those the rest of the community and inspire them to fly. Thus, Simca, and the other kings in genesis. So SF thoughts are, prevent people from flying so they don't hurt themselves when they fall. As for why she has so many thoughts inside, it's because she loves ikki and she wants him to understand her. That's the hole point in their fight. She wants ikki to understand that she's trying to protect him, while he's saying that everyone is different and that everyone can fly if you let them.

    To me, if she is not confused nor lead astray, then she is a hypocrite and bad in the sense that, if I were Ikki, I would not want to have her as a friend or family. Place yourself in Ikki's shoes and imagine your sister (not parent, but an equal), or a very close friend, do all the things Ringo has done; then decide how you feel--you may be surprised, or I may be.
    not sure where you're going with this....

    It is important you identify with the main character, Ikki, and not with Ringo. Don't see yourself as Ringo (though she may be a favorite character) doing these "things", justifying them the way she does; see yourself as having these "things" done to you by some outside force.
    again, as i was saying it all depends on what you believe. It's not like she's doing it for fun or pleasure and in fact quite the opposite. Also stating that you identify yourself with the protagonist can be flawed too. What if the main character is wrong?

    Also, just to state, how do you determine who is good, who is bad, who's the bad guy, who's the good guy? It's all about what you believe and the means of how your going to do it. For example, (hopefully you've played this) let's talk about Kingdom Hearts. (also i didnt wanna bring in religion) Sora, the main character wanted to save Kairi. Riku (his best friend) also wanted to save kairi. Sora tries to save her in the means of fighting the heartless and searching for her heart that way. As for riku, he joined the heartless and tried to find her heart in that means. They both took opposite sides, but does that mean that one of them is right and one of them is wrong? No, they both are striving for the same goal. So what i'm trying to say is, you can't say one person is bad/evil for believing one thing or joining one side, while another person is good for believing a certain way or joining the other side. Both are right, but they both just found a different means of being "right," even if they do have conflict with one another. ....not sure if that's the best analogy but, hopefully u get what i mean.


  2. #92
    heavenorhell7 is offline Senior Member Regular
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    Default Probably too much to read, probably get bored, I was typing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by deuce22 View Post
    ..
    like ringo's turner said, it's a battle of ideologies. Ringo in one hand wants practically no one hurt, so SF goes and hunt down all "possible" people who are candidates for being the sky king or in essence those who can fly. Also they hunt down those who influence those the rest of the community and inspire them to fly. Thus, Simca, and the other kings in genesis. So SF thoughts are, prevent people from flying so they don't hurt themselves when they fall. As for why she has so many thoughts inside, it's because she loves ikki and she wants him to understand her. That's the hole point in their fight. She wants ikki to understand that she's trying to protect him, while he's saying that everyone is different and that everyone can fly if you let them.
    That's why she's duplicitous; she and SF want to "clip", "break", "prevent", take your pick, the wings of those that want, can, or are willing to "fly" freely in the sky by hurting them. That doesn't make sense. She's hurting the same people that she doesn't want to see get hurt from the definite fall, from "flying" freely in the sky. Must everyone fall? Can no one succeed? Why is she playing Mama, and SF Papa, over everyone? A belief in an ideology no matter how strongly you believe in it, does not give you that right. And she says she practically wants no one hurt? Yet, if anyone trespasses her and SF's laws, they will hurt you, mercilessly. Perhaps I just don't understand.

    Ringo: "I don't want to see my love Ikki get hurt by falling from the sky, so ... I'm gonna beat his ass until he understands that, and maybe, just maybe, break his "wings" so that he can't fly up there anymore; anyways, clipping his wings was ordered."

    Quote Originally Posted by deuce22 View Post
    not sure where you're going with this....
    It was a little role playing to see how it would feel if someone outside you started imposing restrictions, solely based on their views, on what you can and cannot do or think. For instance (as analogous example to SF): If I tell you that I think your views, those just posted, are dangerous and slanderous (Ringo saying Ikki's wrong); that they could hurt you in the end by having someone read them, and in their anger beat you (the fall from flying freely in the sky), so, from now on, I, and my posse, forbid you to post any more comments like those, at anytime (the tower laws enforced by Ringo and SF); and if you refuse, or go counter to my laws, better yet, if anyone goes counter to mine and my posse's laws, then we'll go and beat some sense into you, maybe breaking your fingers in the process so you can't type anymore (Ringo and SF "breaking", "clipping", crippling ATers who disobey). But take it to heart, I still love you (Ringo claiming it is all for Ikki's protection).

    Even for a parent, who has a right to impose restrictions on only their children, this is extreme. What's the saying: "If you really love somebody, you'd let them go." That's not what Ringo is doing, she's not believing in Ikki, but instead in SF (and that's fine); and she is also not Ikki's parent, though she may feel like it, she's his peer.

    Quote Originally Posted by deuce22 View Post
    again, as i was saying it all depends on what you believe. It's not like she's doing it for fun or pleasure and in fact quite the opposite. Also stating that you identify yourself with the protagonist can be flawed too. What if the main character is wrong?
    In this case, you have an outside force acting on you for whatever justification they feel they can give their actions. You have to "feel" the pressure. In this case, it wouldn't work with Ikki; he is not an outside force action on someone else (he hasn't really done anything to anyone, lest his family and friends), his view, that we are all different and should not be caged in, allows for Ringo's view (Killik's) to exist; unlike Ringo's view, which do not allow Ikki's view to exist.

    Also, that's why I said Ringo is confused inside, she unsure if what she's doing to Ikki, and probably has done to many others, is the right thing to do; she's questioning her beliefs, but she may have no choice, for whatever reason, to enforce Killik's view.

    Quote Originally Posted by deuce22 View Post
    Also, just to state, how do you determine who is good, who is bad, who's the bad guy, who's the good guy? It's all about what you believe and the means of how your going to do it. For example, (hopefully you've played this) let's talk about Kingdom Hearts. (also i didnt wanna bring in religion) Sora, the main character wanted to save Kairi. Riku (his best friend) also wanted to save kairi. Sora tries to save her in the means of fighting the heartless and searching for her heart that way. As for riku, he joined the heartless and tried to find her heart in that means. They both took opposite sides, but does that mean that one of them is right and one of them is wrong? No, they both are striving for the same goal. So what i'm trying to say is, you can't say one person is bad/evil for believing one thing or joining one side, while another person is good for believing a certain way or joining the other side. Both are right, but they both just found a different means of being "right," even if they do have conflict with one another. ....not sure if that's the best analogy but, hopefully u get what i mean.
    Yes and no (never played the game). Yes, since you believe what I believe about not knowing who is good or bad; SF's true intentions could be to produce a police state, after destroying all the other souped up ATs, leaving only their own. And we don't yet know what Sora's, Genesis', true intentions are, maybe world domination if they get into power? No, on saying it's about what we believe to be right. The thing with ideologies, from which beliefs are based off of, is that they "allow" for certain conditions--I mentioned one, Ikki's and Ringo's. The thing is, is that those conditions get too deep and this "little" post becomes way too philosophical.

    But let's look at what you said about Kindom Hearts. Basically, the claim is: that the ends justify the means, exp., I can torture you for information about a bomb if I it prevents it from going off, exp., it's OK to save Kairi if it means killing, cheating, beating, stealing, anything and anyone that gets in my way. The problem with "the ends justifying the means" is that you have to assume that the end is a definite or most probably consequence of the means; but this is clearly not the case. On many, many occasions, the end, which is a future thing, did not come into being, it was not even the most probable, even though any means were used. So what are you left with? You're left with no end (Kairi not being saved) just a bunch of means (stealing, killing, etc, ... anyone and anything).

    Too much typing, and I've got a paper after this; oh yea, bring it on!
    Last edited by heavenorhell7; 04-02-2007 at 01:27 PM.

  3. #93
    deuce22 is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    first off, cool. Your not freaking out on me....ahahaha. =D thanks man.


    Quote Originally Posted by heavenorhell7 View Post
    That's why she's duplicitous; she and SF want to "clip", "break", "prevent", take your pick, the wings of those that want, can, or are willing to "fly" freely in the sky by hurting them. That doesn't make sense. She's hurting the same people that she doesn't want to see get hurt from the definite fall, from "flying" freely in the sky. Must everyone fall? Can no one succeed? Why is she playing Mama, and SF Papa, over everyone? A belief in an ideology no matter how strongly you believe in it, does not give you that right. And she says she practically wants no one hurt? Yet, if anyone trespasses her and SF's laws, they will hurt you, mercilessly. Perhaps I just don't understand.
    You are right for the most part to be honest, but at the same time i believe your kind of misunderstanding SF. It's like when your parent's yell at you. They dont it cuz they hate you, but they do it because they love you.

    Ringo: "I don't want to see my love Ikki get hurt by falling from the sky, so ... I'm gonna beat his ass until he understands that, and maybe, just maybe, break his "wings" so that he can't fly up there anymore; anyways, clipping his wings was ordered."
    like i said before, it's exactly like the parent thing. Your parents punish you from coming home late, because they don't want you to for a bad habit of it, etc. At the same time it's kind of like Rika and Sora. Sora had wings, but he flew and fell. She doesn't want that to happen to Ikki too. So she doesn't want him to aim for the Tropheum (sp?) because he may end up like Sora, but at the same time she doesn't for him not to air trek anymore.


    It was a little role playing to see how it would feel if someone outside you started imposing restrictions, solely based on their views, on what you can and cannot do or think. For instance (as analogous example to SF): If I tell you that I think your views, those just posted, are dangerous and slanderous (Ringo saying Ikki's wrong); that they could hurt you in the end by having someone read them, and in their anger beat you (the fall from flying freely in the sky), so, from now on, I, and my posse, forbid you to post any more comments like those, at anytime (the tower laws enforced by Ringo and SF); and if you refuse, or go counter to my laws, better yet, if anyone goes counter to mine and my posse's laws, then we'll go and beat some sense into you, maybe breaking your fingers in the process so you can't type anymore (Ringo and SF "breaking", "clipping", crippling ATers who disobey). But take it to heart, I still love you (Ringo claiming it is all for Ikki's protection).
    Ok, i see what you mean. But your doing the beating why? To protect me right? Because let's say you'll break my fingers, but if i did say something and you didnt stop me, someone else offended by my words end up breaking my neck instead. So yeah, wouldn't it be better for me to just have broken fingers than a broken neck? It's just the point of view, where you are coming from. Like i said, both are right, it just depends on where your views are coming from.

    Even for a parent, who has a right to impose restrictions on only their children, this is extreme. What's the saying: "If you really love somebody, you'd let them go." That's not what Ringo is doing, she's not believing in Ikki, but instead in SF (and that's fine); and she is also not Ikki's parent, though she may feel like it, she's his peer.
    She's not a parent, but she's loves him. As much, if not more than a parent would. If you were Ringo, would u want to see the person you love devastated to the point where they can't walk anymore? But at the same time you do have a great point, "if u do love someone then u'd let them go." I honestly agree with that saying, but to continue our "debate" (ahaha) it's tough for you to let that person out in the open. There's the "what if" part that comes with letting someone go. "What if" she did let him fly and he got hurt permanently. Ringo then would think, "if i stopped him, then he would of never got hurt to that degree." It's a big dilemma, but imo you still really can't say Ringo is a bad person. She's doing what is right from her view and she does have a deeper meaning.



    In this case, you have an outside force acting on you for whatever justification they feel they can give their actions. You have to "feel" the pressure. In this case, it wouldn't work with Ikki; he is not an outside force action on someone else (he hasn't really done anything to anyone, lest his family and friends), his view, that we are all different and should not be caged in, allows for Ringo's view (Killik's) to exist; unlike Ringo's view, which do not allow Ikki's view to exist.
    great point indeed. =D But in Ringo's view, no one gets hurt. With Ikki's view, there's the possibility of being hurt.

    Also, that's why I said Ringo is confused inside, she unsure if what she's doing to Ikki, and probably has done to many others, is the right thing to do; she's questioning her beliefs, but she may have no choice, for whatever reason, to enforce Killik's view.
    =\ Thats kind of speculation there. Ringo seems like a strong individual, it seems like she does things more for herself and the ppl she loves over Kilik.

    Yes and no (never played the game). Yes, since you believe what I believe about not knowing who is good or bad; SF's true intentions could be to produce a police state, after destroying all the other souped up ATs, leaving only their own. And we don't yet know what Sora's, Genesis', true intentions are, maybe world domination if they get into power? No, on saying it's about what we believe to be right. The thing with ideologies, from which beliefs are based off of, is that they "allow" for certain conditions--I mentioned one, Ikki's and Ringo's. The thing is, is that those conditions get too deep and this "little" post becomes way too philosophical.
    lol, that's the whole point in their fight right now. A battle between ideologies and we're just kinda elaborating from both sides. You more from Ikki's view, and I'm actually not siding with Ringo, but I'm just defending her views.

    But let's look at what you said about Kindom Hearts. Basically, the claim is: that the ends justify the means, exp., I can torture you for information about a bomb if I it prevents it from going off, exp., it's OK to save Kairi if it means killing, cheating, beating, stealing, anything and anyone that gets in my way. The problem with "the ends justifying the means" is that you have to assume that the end is a definite or most probably consequence of the means; but this is clearly not the case. On many, many occasions, the end, which is a future thing, did not come into being, it was not even the most probable, even though any means were used. So what are you left with? You're left with no end (Kairi not being saved) just a bunch of means (stealing, killing, etc, ... anyone and anything).

    Too much typing, and I've got a paper after this; oh yea, bring it on![/QUOTE]

    i wont say the end always does justify the actions, but definitely if your doing something to their scale, it has to have a greater meaning. (ughhh) i just had somethings happen and i dont wanna think anymore...i'll reply more later or so.


  4. #94
    heavenorhell7 is offline Senior Member Regular
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    Default I"m done with my paper, hear me roar. It's long, but fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by deuce22 View Post
    You are right for the most part to be honest, but at the same time i believe your kind of misunderstanding SF. It's like when your parent's yell at you. They dont it cuz they hate you, but they do it because they love you.
    True, true, but the thing with parents is that they have default authority over you (by God, nature, upbringing, etc.), unlike with you're peers; and clearly, Ringo and for the most part SF, are Ikki's peers. The only one who would really have a right to enforce SF's rules, but enforcing in a calmer, less violent manner, would be Rika; she's like a parent to Ikki. Don't you find it curious as to why she changed her views towards caging Ikki? Is it because she loves Ikki less than Ringo? It's interesting to think about this.

    Quote Originally Posted by deuce22 View Post
    like i said before, it's exactly like the parent thing. Your parents punish you from coming home late, because they don't want you to for a bad habit of it, etc. At the same time it's kind of like Rika and Sora. Sora had wings, but he flew and fell. She doesn't want that to happen to Ikki too. So she doesn't want him to aim for the Tropheum (sp?) because he may end up like Sora, but at the same time she doesn't for him not to air trek anymore.
    See my post above. I got from the manga that Rika may not like or want Ikki to aim for the top because of what you said, but she choose to set him free in the end; I thought that's what their whole little battle was about, maybe I have to reread (I only go off memory). It's just I thought she choose to place her trust and belief in Ikki, which is not what Ringo is doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by deuce22 View Post
    Ok, i see what you mean. But your doing the beating why? To protect me right? Because let's say you'll break my fingers, but if i did say something and you didnt stop me, someone else offended by my words end up breaking my neck instead. So yeah, wouldn't it be better for me to just have broken fingers than a broken neck? It's just the point of view, where you are coming from. Like i said, both are right, it just depends on where your views are coming from.
    The problem with me doing the beating (aside from being sadistic) is that I'm assuming the end as a given, a definite consequence, of whatever means I use. At least in my mind, it's not right to make that assumption or jump, that, an effect is a definite outcome regardless of the causes; I'm used to thinking deterministically about things: You have a definite cause then a realated definte effect of that cause.

    You see, I assumed that everyone would hurt you if you posted again in that manner, but the truth is, that I'll be wrong a lot more often than I am right, so what are we left with? Me, nothing, you and your friends who defied me, broken fingers; also, their was no danger of you being beaten, for the most part, by most people out there. So I didn't prevent anything I just snapped you fingers likes twigs. Just because something happens once (Sora fell), twice (maybe Ikki if they let him), it does not indicate or imply that it will always(all ATers) happen. I'm sorry for making you use toes to wipe your ass, please believe me, I still love you, though I'll wait until you shower to hug you. [After locking the cage with keys, heavenorhell7 throws them away.].

    Quote Originally Posted by deuce22 View Post
    She's not a parent, but she's loves him. As much, if not more than a parent would. If you were Ringo, would u want to see the person you love devastated to the point where they can't walk anymore? But at the same time you do have a great point, "if u do love someone then u'd let them go." I honestly agree with that saying, but to continue our "debate" (ahaha) it's tough for you to let that person out in the open. There's the "what if" part that comes with letting someone go. "What if" she did let him fly and he got hurt permanently. Ringo then would think, "if i stopped him, then he would of never got hurt to that degree." It's a big dilemma, but imo you still really can't say Ringo is a bad person. She's doing what is right from her view and she does have a deeper meaning.
    Listen, there are no guarantees for anyone at anytime in life ... except maybe taxes; we cry, we smile, then we die ... and if we haven't paid taxes yet, they'll still find a way to bend us over (necrophiliac bastards!). I know Ringo cares very deeply for Ikki, yet she's confused in her love; she could love him a lot deeper and truer if she just believed and trusted Ikki.

    Think about: What would pain you more? Having your loved one broken in some way, by doing something they loved, or, by having your loved one just broken, by being denied what they loved to do. Wouldn't it pain you more to watch the one you claimed to love hurt, by not being able to do what they love to do, never given that chance to try, the chance to succeed or fail on their own, their dreamed crushed in more ways than one (SF and Ringo are willing to crush it physically and mentally); if you cage someone, or deny them their love for whatever justification--"I'm saving him from himself, from falling"--you give yourself, eventually, they become a husk of their original self, sometimes even embittered, angry, resentful, and indignat of you. Where's the love then? You may love them the same, nay, more than before, but they're different, they don't return it like before.

    Quote Originally Posted by deuce22 View Post
    great point indeed. =D But in Ringo's view, no one gets hurt. With Ikki's view, there's the possibility of being hurt.
    Again, there's always the possibility of being hurt. Ringo is confused and, well, hurting people--physically as well as mentally. As I type, I could possibly die, (which is worse than hurt) of a heart attack from my overzealous wonder at words; yet, I hope I won't. I hope I get a chance to live at least a small portion of my dream, to not be denied. The funny thing is, I know I can be hurt, even die in the process (a paper cut infection turned deadly), yet I still want to do it. Why? Well, I believe in fulfilling it, or in getting a small taste of it, I'll go beyond what I am now; I'll be more complete, more satisfied with life, and the like. Do I not fear death? No, I fear it very much, especially because of those necrophiliac bastards just mentioned, but I fear not living to a fuller potential (mine or humanities) more; I want to get the most out of life that can be gotten out--I'll wring it like a sponge if I have to and woe to those that try to deny me. Ah, it's good and fun to think that way, but unfortunately, not all of reality conforms to my beliefs, no matter how attached I am to them.
    Last edited by heavenorhell7; 04-03-2007 at 07:11 PM.

  5. #95
    deuce22 is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Ahahahaha, to be honest i didnt want to write a another novel, so i'll sum up everything.

    A lot of it has to do with perspective. When we were kids, we think very simple minded and that we are never wrong type of thing. As we grow older, we change views. Lets see the best example is...umm...

    Say a married couple is getting divorced. They have a kid too. The kid loves his mom more than his dad, so obviously when the parents split he wants to go with his mom. The mom though doesn't have a great job or so, but the kid still would prefer to go with the mom. The kid will have the mentality, "I love my mom and whatever problems we have, we'll deal with it." The mom though, even though she loves her kid to death, I can almost guarantee you that if the dad has a successful job, she would want the kid to go with his dad so as he grows up he won't have to worry about anything financially related.

    You see what i mean though, they both stand at different spots and have different mentalities due to their point of view. Referencing that to Ikki and Ringo, Ikki is more of the kid and Ringo is the Mom. Both are right, but they both oppose each other.


  6. #96
    3955elits is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    sorry to interrupt in your debate...
    for me,everything can be seen from different point of view
    Referencing that to Ikki and Ringo, Ikki is more of the kid and Ringo is the Mom. Both are right, but they both oppose each other.
    as a college student studying electricity,there isn't anything can be called "both are right".For me "they both think that they're doing the right thing" is more suitable.
    oh yeah is selfish can be called bad?because I think ringo is soooo selfish by thinking like that.
    True, true, but the thing with parents is that they have default authority over you (by God, nature, upbringing, etc.), unlike with you're peers; and clearly, Ringo and for the most part SF, are Ikki's peers.
    I greatly agree with you.she's acting like she is his mother yet she doesn't even have any authority over him,even though she loves him more than her life.
    don't take it serious,this is just a manga where everything might happen and seems impossible in real life

  7. #97
    heavenorhell7 is offline Senior Member Regular
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    deuce22> What if the mom just want to be single again to get "some", and also make it more difficult for her ex-husband to score? Everyone knows it's more difficult for an adult with child to get "some" than one without . (Yea, I know, I'm going to hell.)

    3955elits> Yea, I kinda felt that too, Ringo in a way is being selfish.

  8. #98
    metrobluejay is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    See my post above. I got from the manga that Rika may not like or want Ikki to aim for the top because of what you said, but she choose to set him free in the end; I thought that's what their whole little battle was about, maybe I have to reread (I only go off memory). It's just I thought she choose to place her trust and belief in Ikki, which is not what Ringo is doing.
    But you're forgetting that it took the battle with Ikki for Rika to realize that she can set him free. While Ringo was in that battle, she was doing it because it was forced upon her and her sisters by Rika.

    Ringo hasn't had that great revelation that Rika had, plus she is tied down by the duties of SF. Something that Rika doesn't need to worry about anymore because she quit.

    Edit: After rereading from chapter 130, Ringo didn't even start this current fight. Ikki started it with a misunderstanding then his stubborness to not listen to her explanation. It seems like she was dragged into this fight by Ikki.

    The thing that is troubling me right now, though, was why did Ikki say that Ringo betrayed him?
    Last edited by metrobluejay; 04-04-2007 at 06:58 PM. Reason: To add some more thoughts
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  9. #99
    deuce22 is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    ahahhaa...what u brought up HorH7, is kinda not my point...ahahaha. =\


  10. #100
    heavenorhell7 is offline Senior Member Regular
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    I thought Ringo did start the fight? I thought Ikki just wanted some time by himself (the usual guy thing, we don't always need to talk about our feelings or problems to solve them) to think things through, when Ringo sort of provoked him; I mean, she blind sided him when he tried to walk away, then she took his emblem. I can understand Ikki wanting to be alone, he had four major revelations: 1) the kiss (though I think this was only a small part of him leaving), 2) that Ringo gave the order to beat Simica's ass (a more major part of why he left, he was confused and hurt), 3) Ringo's the head of SF (he may have suspected or known before, but the reality of what it entails may have dawned on him and confused him more), and 4) that Ringo's been hiding a lot from him over the years (more confusion and questioning for Ikki).

    I can completely understand why he would feel betrayed; I would. I feel Ringo provoked the fight, by somewhat putting Ikki in a corner; I think she took the initiative to play SF's leader more than to be Ikki's sister. Ikki tried walking away from the fight, he was feeling confused, betrayed over what happened, and it looked like he didn't want to fight with someone he cared for. But Ringo insisted and provoked (like a nagging girlfriend that hits); it's easy to get a fight from someone who is feeling confused and betrayed, possibly somewhat angry. Ikki just needed time to figure out how to deal with the situation; he's a strategist after all.
    Last edited by heavenorhell7; 04-05-2007 at 04:30 AM.

 

 
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